**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

[The Saucepan Man]

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...

[Lalwendë]

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

Going back to what Boromir 88 says about Saruman and Chris Lee, he did have the chance to meet Tolkien, and he also reads LotR every year so he is 'one of us'. i.e. a fan, and this shows in his performances in each of the films. Saruman truly comes to life in Lee's capable hands. This performance reminded me of his Wicker Man performance, both charming and treacherous.

About the power of his voice - surely one of the strengths of it is that he can get his words into the mind of any listener no matter how far away, so his being on top of Orthanc made sense to me.

The only disappointing thing was that his spirit did not rise to face Valinor and get rejected. But then this might have confused a fair few viewers so it's perfectly excusable. That was interesting though - the wheel of spikes; and he was the one who built the big ugly mill in Hobbiton, so a little link to the 'book version' there?

[Boromir88]

I feel a long post coming on here:

Guinevere,

I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ?

I laugh everytime I see the archers at Minas Tirith, shooting the large wooden siege towers, and not the trolls. Then Gandalf has to tell them "aim for the trolls!"

Tuor:

Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

I can understand if Mr. Jackson wants to show some weakness in Denethor, since it would stress the fact that Gondor was in need of a King. I think the fact that in the books, that no enemy entered Minas Tirith, it was a nice defensive strategy by Denethor, and a good leadership quality of Gandalf. However, what people want to see this huge army come to the gates and be stopped in their track? Getting them in on the 4-5 levels adds suspense. Plus, it stresses that Gondor needs a King, where if people see this strategy by Denethor, that halts the Enemy in it's tracks people would wonder, was there a need for a king? The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. It has no unity, or plausibility, that people would watch while their lord is getting beaten up. Even if he was a raging mad man, who knew? Pippin might have, Gandalf probably, but if his servants are still willing to listen to him when he says "Burn my son," and they don't stop him from getting cracked in the face, just puzzles me, there is no unity. The other thing I'm dissapointed in, I can see Gondor being made weak, and see Denethor being dumped upon, but they made him seem like a crazy mad man ever since he took rule. And made it seem that Denethor was the worst thing that ever came to Gondor. without the palantir just makes him look more like a jerk then he already was. I hope that spiel wasn't too long, onto the next thing.

Tiger,

After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.

Good point about the banter. I imagined the scene as Saruman coming off as he's sorry in an attempt to manipulate Theoden. I wanted to see the Rohirrim cheering at the voice of Saruman, and then wonder in amazement when Theoden denied him. But that's how I pictured it and I don't find it dissapointing. I do not like how it's the almighty Legolas who kills Grima. I think Grima was one of the more pitable characters in Tolkien, and with his death in the book, I actually felt sorry for the guy. Now he will go down as the dirty scumbag that all great Legolas killed. But, that's how I view it.

With Saruman's death chech this post.
Origninally posted by me.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

I think those are the reasons behind why PJ did what he did. Whether you like them or not though, is up to you Also, without the scouring, I'm just glad that they EVEN had Saruman. I think consdidering the circumstances that was a fitting end for Saruman.

And also, see this thread for a nice discussion on Saruman's and Grima's death (PJ's way).

Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.

I would have preferred to have Eowyn disquised as Dernhelm too. However, we already know it's Eowyn by her voice and Merry so cleverly says "My lady." I too don't understand why Eowyn is walking around with her helmet off. She disguised herself, to sneak in without Theoden's approval, yet she's walking around "undisguised."

[HCIsland]

[QUOTE=Boromir88]The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. [QUOTE]

But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.

I know I'm come across as a PJ fanatic at times, but I am not. I'm a great fan of the trilogy and, although King was my favourite film of last year, neither Towers nor Fellowship were of the years before. I don't think that it would have been a colossal oversight on the part of the Academy not to give Best Picture to King (they have numerous previous blunders that are larger) and would have been happy to see it go to Lost in Translation, an equally deserving film, though so different to be completely incomparable.

Nor do I think Jackson is the world's greatest working director, though he is a talent to be sure. I find each of his films are injected with a sense of raw fun that is sorely missing from almost all Hollywood blockbusters for quite some time. Is he over the top at times? Certainly yes, but there is such a lack of pomposity that I don't really mind. I would take Jackson over a dozen of these paint-by-number directors that currently make most of our summer brain candy. In fact, I would argue that his film Heavenly Creatures demonstrates a deft and a talent for creating simply but haunting images (the mother's murder from that film is still with me).

When I first heard that these movies were to be made I tried to keep my expectations under control, but these films turned out to be far better than I could have reasonable expected. I never expected Citizen Kane, but I think these films stand head and shoulders above anything else that has been produced in this genre in a long, long time. Certainly, there are things I would like to see tweaked, and I don't mind talking about them, but I find dwelling them beyond all the things that were done so well to be rather silly.

Anyway, on to my thoughts on the added scenes. On the whole I find them on much the same level as the extended versions of the other two films (I'm not, as a whole, much of a fan of extended cuts). Some scenes I love, some I could do without. I posted what I thought of the scenes on my Journal at Rotten Tomatoes, so if people don't mind, I'll paste them here.

The Voice of Saruman (A+): Absolutely marvelous! I was worried a bit about this scene, especially after seeing a production shot quite some time ago of Saruman impaled on one of those spikey wheels, but my worries were groundless. Lee was great, originally emerging consolatory but then spitting venom when he realizes that isn't going to work. There is some really nice dialogue here (much of which comes straight from the book) including Saruman telling Theoden that he is a lesser king than the ones that came before, which plays very well into later events with this character. I thought moving the deaths of Saruman and Wormtongue from The Shire to Isengard worked very well. I'm not exactly sure how one can have a conversation with someone who's about 300 feet in the air, but Saruman's tumble more than made up for that little issue. I really liked Jackson's touch of having Saruman slowly disappearing below the water as well. Very nice!

Gimli's & Legolas' Drinking Game (B): This one worked for me. Although sometimes I think John Rees Davies' Gimli gets a little too silly (especially in the extended scenes) this wasn't one of them. Gimli turns out to be rather desturbing when drunk. "Swimming with hairy women"? Very weird, but what really made this scene worked is that it provided the mirth for the return to Edoras scenes, allowing Jackson to insert a change into Merry's and Pippin's song showing that the palantir is every present on Pippin's mind.

Eowyn's Dream (B+): In the book this dream was given to Faramir and it is interesting how the same words can now have such a different meaning. In the book it is Faramir remembering the destruction of Numenor, connecting this character to something more noble from the past. For Eowyn it is metephor for her despair and her inability to see the light of hope and happiness coming from behind her. I liked it.

Pippin's Departure (A-): There is some nice dialogue from Merry to Aragorn as they watch Gandalf and Pippin ride off, where he expresses his concerns and laments about being seperated from Pippin. It was the first extra bit that I wondered if it would have been better in the theatrical cut.

Minas Tirith (A): I like the lines of Theoden giving Gandalf crap for foolishly sending The Ring into Mordor. Saruman has some lines to this effect directed at Gandalf too, and I like these scenes that cast some doubt onto Gandalf's plans.

The Decline of Gondor (A): Nice little history lesson here with some extra great shots of the city.

Cross-roads of the Fallen King (C): These scene is very much as it is described in the book but it doesn't feel in it's right place here. Likely it would have worked better earlier in the film, but I don't think that fits there either. It's a nice little scene, but I think it's better off not being there.

Sam's Warning (C-): A superfluous scene of Sam warning Gollum that he'll be watching him and Frodo catching the tail end of the conversation. Of course, this is working towards Frodo eventually sending Sam off, but I don't think that needs any more scenes to support.

Invasion of Osgiliath (C+): An extra scene of the orcs shooting a guard from a tower as they cross the river which only begs the question, how can the orcs spot a guard in an unlit tower window when that same guard has touble seeing a fleet of torch lit barges coming his way? This begs the further question, if you were sneaking across a river, why would you light your barges with torches? There is some extra dialogue between Faramir and his second in command (I can't remember his name) which works as that guy gets killed fairly soon. The extra scenes are okay, but nothing to go on about.

Merry Pledging to Theoden (B): Another nice little scene. We need more Merry but I can understand why, in the theatrical cut, we need to stay with the more major characters which are Frodo and Aragorn. There's also a bit with Merry struggling to get his pony going and Legolas talking of battles coming to other areas of Middle Earth.

The Wizard's Pupil (A+): An extra scene where Denethor berates Faramir for not bringing The Ring to him. This scene also has a powerful moment where Denethor has a delusion of Boromir being in the room. The scene works exrtremely well at expressing the relationship between Faramir and Denethor, as well Denethor insanity. Very well acted by John Noble and executed by Jackson. In my opinion, this is a best of the added scenes.

Peregrin of the Tower Guard (A): Very nice scene between Pippin and Faramir, connected these two characters together and further allowing us to understand the change in character of Pippin when he resues Faramir from Denethor's Pyre.

Marshalling at Dunharrow (D+): There are some extra lines from Eomer telling Eowyn that war is the domain for men. He is speaking as to why Merry (a hobbit) should not come to Minas Tirith, but we know the second meaning behind the line. Personally, I think the conversation was better when it ended with Eowyn's line, "why can't he fight for those he loves". The way it is in the extended cut, it almost seems that Eowyn's decision to ride with the Rohirrim is in reaction to Eomer. "Oh yeah, I'll show you big brother."

Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead (A): Aragorn's last line to Eowyn is now, "I've wished you joy since first I saw you", which works so well now that we will be getting a resolution to Eowyn's story.

Dwimorberg-The Haunted Mountain (C+): There is also some extra lines in the Legolas history lesson which, I suppose, makes the paths seem creepier.

Paths of the Dead (C-): Both good and bad in here. I like the extra scenes of Legolas describing the dead following them and Gimli getting more and more afraid, though Gimli's antics get a little too silly. We then get treated to the avalanche of skulls which chases our heros out the other side. After, it seems that Aragorn failed in getting the Dead to follow but then the King of the Dead emerges saying, "We'll fight". I'm neither here nor there about the scenes themselves but personally, I thought the it worked much better ending as it did in the theatrical cut, where it is left unsaid whether Aragorn succeeded or not.

The Siege of Gondor (A-): There are extra scenes building up to the appearance of Grond, the huge battering ram. The scenes include shots of orcs using a smaller battering ram that is completely ineffective against the gates. This does bring up the question, if you have this huge battering ram which is obviously built specifically for this purpose, wouldn't you have brought used it right away in the first place? Either way, the scenes work well for the DVD because Grond's appearance marks the end of the first disk and it makes it really feel like an end of a part 1.

The Corsairs of Umbar (B): Okay, this scene got a giggle out of me. I figure if you are going to let the audience know that the Dead are going to fight for Aragorn, you should be giving us them attacking the Corsairs. I'm fine with this little bit.

Merry's Simple Courage (A): Nice scene between Merry and Eowyn which really works to show Eowyn seeing some light in the tunnel that she is in.

The Tomb of the Stewards (A): Some good extra dialogue from Denethor showing his state of mind a little more clearly. There is also a neat shot of a single blossom blooming on The White Tree.

The Witch King's Hour (C-): The shot of Gandalf confronting the Witch King was featured prominently in the original trailers for the film, and it looked gorgeous, and the truth is, it is. There is nothing wrong with the scene itself but it is a classic example of how a good scene does not necessarily mean it makes the movie better. The arrival of the Rohirrim is much better in the theatrical cut. The whole city appear lost. Gandalf is yelling, "fight to the last man," and then the horns sound. We get Theoden's great speech, they charge and then we get Pippin finding Gandalf, the two ride off to rescue Faramir and we cut back to the charging Rohirrim. There is just so much energy on the screen this way. The Witch King scene forces this to be changed and the result is a far less dynamic presentation of the events that are unfolding. The whole is not always the sum of it's pieces.

The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.

The Battle of Pelenor Fields (C-): Some extra fighting shots which do little to add to the development of the battle and merely make it longer (like it wasn't already plenty long). Better moments include Merry having a nice kill and Theoden seemingly catching a glimps of Eowyn just before the Witch King attacks.

Victory at Minas Tirith (D-): There is a silly extra scene where the wounded Gothmog (the Elephant Man like orc commander) is closing in on the wounded Eowyn only to be cut down by Aragorn and Gimli steamroller. Pretty dumb and better being absent.

The Houses of Healing (B): Nice scene of Eomer finding Eowyn followed by a short montage of Aragorn healing Eowyn and her rising and seeing Faramir. I know purists will balk at this one, but considering the time constraints (even in a 4 hour plus film) I thought they did a nice job. The thing to remember is that they never shot this stuff intending there to be an extended cut of the film. This was shot because they felt they may be able to get it into the theatrical cut, and thus they knew there wouldn't be the time to do anything like what was in the book. My one complaint about the scene is that someone who has not read the book would be left pretty confused as to why Eowyn was so sick. The movie never provides a reason.

Pippin Finds Merry (B-): The scene is shifted to the night time (oh, those tricky colour graders). Nothing wrong with the scene, but by this point the extra minutes are starting to add up. We need to get back to Frodo and Sam.

Aragorn & The Palantir (A): Nice scene which really shows how Aragorn is drawing Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. I like the inclusion of the dieing Arwen. That palantir is a nasty machine!

Faramir & Eowyn (A-): The scene is fine and works to give a conclusion to Eowyn, which was certainly missing from the theatrical cut. Even though this scene is short, you can really feel how it detracts from what was going on with Frodo and Sam and at the Black Gate. Tolkien himself moved the scene until after the climax at Mount Doom, which works much better, but Jackson didn't have the same kind of freedom when it comes to nonlinear story telling.

In the Company of Orcs (D): Tolkien had this scene because he needed to have something happen to Frodo and Sam as they crossed Gorgoroth. This film doesn't need it as it serves no real purpose. It's done fine enough, it just doesn't seem to have a point.

The Land of Shadow (C+): There is an extra, brief scene of Frodo and Sam throwing away their gear, but it doesn't seem to carry the same weight as it does in the book. On extra shot of Sam looking longingly at his cooking gear before he throws it into the fisure would have been enough for me.

The Mouth of Sauron (A-): I think The Mouth was one of their best bits of design in the whole trilogy. This guy creeps me out. I think Aragorn decapitating him is a bit much (and not very statesman like at that). Sending him off with his tail between his legs as it happens in the book would have been better, but I like how it sets up their despair over thinking that Frodo is dead.

H.C.

[HCIsland]

This is something fun I figured out just today.

I added up the total times of the three extended editions (without the closing credits) and they almost perfectly make sixteen, standard, one hour (ie. 44 minutes) television episodes. I even took some time to work out where the breaks in the episodes would be and most of them worked out fairly well.

So, who has those network connections?

H.C.

[Elennar Starfire]

I loved it! And...TWO easter eggs! I've only found one each on FotR and TTT...

[Iaurhirwen]

Oooh, where are the easter eggs???? I can't even find any in FOTR and TTT, even though I know where to look

[mark12_30]

Not I, Saucy. I love the EE. Much praise to give, contrasted with one gripe. The glass is , hmmmm, ninety-five to ninety-eight percent FULL.

A Few Spoilers:

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant. Tribute to the fans, every bit of it. You had to know the book to know what was going on, to read behind the lines: Aragorn dips the cloth into the water: we know it's aethelas-water. He laves her brow with it: that's what you do with aethelas water. Then her cold, lifeless, very-grey arm-- her shield arm! We know why. And finally we watch her slowly wake-- we know why; there was a long struggle first, not but you couldn't take the time to explain it to non-bookies. Eomer is sitting very near, very concerned, while Aragorn does all this: but when Eowyn opens her eyes, who is she seeing? Is it Eomer? I'll have to watch it again to be sure. They never even explained that "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer." Therefore-- the whole scene was in a sense meaningless to those who hadn't read the book. It was a pure fan-tribute (not unlike Treebeard quoting Bombadil's lines to pseudo-Old Man Willow.)

That showed me (once again) how dedicated these film-makers (the whole team) are to making Old-school Tolkien fans as happy as they can. They already had their oscars, they could have just sat on their laurels. I'm glad they didn't.

Now for my one gripe: Black Gate, MoS. (I liked his portrayal just fine; I thought the arrogant, coquettish tiliting of his head was excellent. He thought he was just the cat's meow. Ugh! ) And I thought the whole Mithril shirt thing was well-done. But here's what bugged me. Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elessar, Elfstone, the Heir of Isildur: breaking parley by murdering the messenger? Completely out of character. Where's the honor in that? No challenge, no warning, just-- whack. That breaks the code of war, and that is something Aragorn would not have done. And (while I'm at it) why was Gimli nudging Legolas' bow, supposed to be funny? Same thing. Breaking parley-- *not* cool.

Okay, end rant.

Otherwise: I loved it. Here are a few of my hilites:

Eomer's lecture: Good setup for what follows.
Merry talks to Eowyn: Very nice.
Balking Stybba: Excellent!!
Faramir & Pippin-- superb, I thought.
Magnificent: Rath Dinen. The sweep and scope of the city is fuller, more historical, and it brings TTT "Arwen at Aragorn's bier" scene momentarily back into focus.
Eomer's grief: too brief... but I'm glad it was there.
Houses of healing: did you SEE that garden-room? Or whatever it was, that rear-aerial shot, in the houses of healing? Gorgeous.
The orc with the Mithril shirt getting away-- Very key.
"You see, Mister Frodo? Some luck at last!" And then here come the troops. Great Irony.
Frodo picking a fight with Sam among the orcs: I liked it. It showed a Frodo that still had some brains left.
Sam's Pans, Sam's Pans! Oh, that was SO good.

[Boromir88]

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant.

My view on a lot of the extra scenes is the fact that I'm proud they actually added in those scenes! Whether they were brief or not. I do think the HoH was a necessary addition, doesn't make sense that Eowyn and Faramir are deadly sick, then with no explanation are all of a suddenly healed and glaring at eachother at Aragorn's coronation.

The fact that they have the Mouth, Saruman's ending, the HoH, makes me appreciate it. Saruman's voice is one of my favorite chapters from the whole book, I love when Eowyn is finally happy with a guy (darnit I thought I had a shot). I think just adding this stuff in we should be pleased, instead of griping about how there wasn't enough time spent on it. But, anyway, I'm done ranting again.

[Guinevere]

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...


Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!

Well, I think it would be more becoming and normal if she slept in her chamber, and all those men out in the hall!! But that would't give her an opportunity to talk to Aragorn.

I forgot to mention a small incident which I appreciate very much because it is one of my favourite scenes in the book: the glimpse of the star above the clouds that Sam sees in Mordor, and his comment.

[alatar]

I preferred the book version where the MOS rode off to a destiny unknown. It mirrors the Morgoth/Sauron relationship/ending, and it leaves a higher lever bad guy for Aragorn's progeny to deal with in the Fourth age. This is probably obvious, but I see Tolkien writing a 'history' that leads to our modern day world, and so in each age we get further away from the 'magical' beings - orcs becoming more 'mannish,' the disappearance or absorption of the little folk, etc.

Also, I agree that Aragorn beheading the MOS is out of character and more of a time saver for the film.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...

Us lot? You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?

One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.

In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!

[Boromir88]

No need to get fiesty, we all have a right to our own opinions.

Looking down this thread, the criticisms in the movie are a bit nit-picky. There are a few valid criticisms I can see where people aren't happy with. But the fact that there wasn't enough time in the HoH, Saruman being on top of Orthanc instead of the balcony, and the Mouth of Sauron, I find rather carping insignificant criticisms.
But that's just my take.

I think we would have all appreciated to see some more HoH, but think of it this way....
First off people would be complaining if there WAS NO Houses of Healing. So, consider this, would you rather have however long it was, 30 seconds, of Houses of Healing, or no Houses at all? Oh well, sometimes there's just no pleasing some folks.

I honestly don't believe someone else could have done as good of a job as PJ has pleasing Tolkien readers (most of them), and atracting in a large fan group.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Turin

You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?

I have no objections to criticisms, provided that they are validly and intelligently made (and there are many, both here and elsewhere, that fall into this category, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't). My main "gripe" (if you can call it that as = flippant comment), is the prevailing negativity with little counterbalance of positivity. According to the prevailing opinion on this thread, the EE is dreadful and not worth wasting my time over (and I somehow doubt that to be the case). I will no doubt agree with some of the criticisms (indeed, I already do, having seen some of the trailers) but it surely it can't be all bad (which is the impression given by the majority of (recent at least) posts here).

One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.

But they might give that impression if they restrict their comments solely to those criticisms (genuinely held though they undoubtedly are).

In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!

Hehe. I suppose it might be said that I have "jumped on the bandwagon", given that the films awakened my interest in Tolkien that had previously been dormant for some 20 years and prompted me to find this place.

[Turin]

Saucepan Man, (btw, i tried to put some smilies in but for some reason couldn't, so my comments were made in good jest)

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

My lack of positive comments comes from, not my dislike of the trilogy (I actually like them very much), but from the fact that others have already pretty much summed them up!

Hence, I like to play Devil's Advocate so that there is another perspective (though all of what I have said is true to how I really feel).

[Essex]

if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him.

I find that if one looks hard enough (I'm not having a go here Boromir, and I agree with almost all you've said so far) you can find some seed in the book that PJ 'built' upon. The above is one. quote below is where Gandalf arrives at Rath Dinen and confronts Denethor

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

As you can see, there is something in the book about Gandalf 'striking' Denethor (I admit it isn't with his staff but with his hand)

PS Mr Saucepan - well said as usual! My cup is at the moment about 80-90% full, and no doubt on further viewings will rise towards 100%, especially when I hear the director and co's commentaries

[Boromir88]

Do you know where I can find that quote Essex? Not that I doubt you, just don't remember coming across that, I want to see if I've read that before or if I haven't. Since, I don't remember it. (I'm guessing it's in the Pyre of Denethor chapter?)

I still stick with what I've said. If only one of Denethor's servants (Beregond) goes against Denethor, either the others don't know he's mad, or are too afraid of the consequences, then I feel they would have done something to protect their lord.

Turin, I know how you feel. That's why I like posting early, to get everything I need out, instead of worrying about repeating, or rehashing what people have already said.

Edit: Before I forget, SpM, I viewed the movie again, the lines with Pippin and Gandalf out on the balcony are...

Pippin: But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something. (sees troubled face on Gandalf) Gandalf?
Gandalf: Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant, the one who will lead Mordor's armies, the one they say no living man can kill. The Witch-King of Angmar, you've met him before, he stabbed Frodo on Weathertop. He is the Lord of the Nazgul, deadliest of the nine, Minas Morgul is his lair.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Turin

my comments were made in good jest

And you can rest assured that they were taken as such.

Don't mind me. I just lurk around this forum and jump out grouchily every so often when I feel that the films are getting too much of a battering.

Although I most certainly don't regard the films as perfect - I have been known to criticise them myself on occasion (always validly and intelligently, of course ).

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

Which is precisely how I feel about the negatives. And they seem to be the main talking point these days - certainly in comparison with when RotK first came out. Perhaps these films just lose their gloss for some people after a time. Or perhaps it is just that the negative points are easier to make.

Although I am quite surprised that there have been quite so many negative points made about the EE, given that it includes many of the scenes that caused so much disappointment by their omission with the release of the theatrical version. Perhaps expectations were a little high, particularly after the TTT EE, which did much to make amends for what was undoubtedly (for me) the weakest of the (film) trilogy.

In any event. I can't be that much of a fanboy, as I have had the EE for nearly a week and still haven't unwrapped it, let alone watched it.

Edit: Thanks for providing the line, Boromir88. It does ring a bell now that you mention it. Of course, to be true to the book, Gandalf's line would have had to have been: "... the one they say no living man will kill."

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

You echo some of my thoughts, Tuor! I'd forgotten about my uncomfortable feeling when Legolamb.. sorry LEGOLAS shoots Grima.