**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Turin]

Saucepan Man, (btw, i tried to put some smilies in but for some reason couldn't, so my comments were made in good jest)

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

My lack of positive comments comes from, not my dislike of the trilogy (I actually like them very much), but from the fact that others have already pretty much summed them up!

Hence, I like to play Devil's Advocate so that there is another perspective (though all of what I have said is true to how I really feel).

[Essex]

if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him.

I find that if one looks hard enough (I'm not having a go here Boromir, and I agree with almost all you've said so far) you can find some seed in the book that PJ 'built' upon. The above is one. quote below is where Gandalf arrives at Rath Dinen and confronts Denethor

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

As you can see, there is something in the book about Gandalf 'striking' Denethor (I admit it isn't with his staff but with his hand)

PS Mr Saucepan - well said as usual! My cup is at the moment about 80-90% full, and no doubt on further viewings will rise towards 100%, especially when I hear the director and co's commentaries

[Boromir88]

Do you know where I can find that quote Essex? Not that I doubt you, just don't remember coming across that, I want to see if I've read that before or if I haven't. Since, I don't remember it. (I'm guessing it's in the Pyre of Denethor chapter?)

I still stick with what I've said. If only one of Denethor's servants (Beregond) goes against Denethor, either the others don't know he's mad, or are too afraid of the consequences, then I feel they would have done something to protect their lord.

Turin, I know how you feel. That's why I like posting early, to get everything I need out, instead of worrying about repeating, or rehashing what people have already said.

Edit: Before I forget, SpM, I viewed the movie again, the lines with Pippin and Gandalf out on the balcony are...

Pippin: But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something. (sees troubled face on Gandalf) Gandalf?
Gandalf: Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant, the one who will lead Mordor's armies, the one they say no living man can kill. The Witch-King of Angmar, you've met him before, he stabbed Frodo on Weathertop. He is the Lord of the Nazgul, deadliest of the nine, Minas Morgul is his lair.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Turin

my comments were made in good jest

And you can rest assured that they were taken as such.

Don't mind me. I just lurk around this forum and jump out grouchily every so often when I feel that the films are getting too much of a battering.

Although I most certainly don't regard the films as perfect - I have been known to criticise them myself on occasion (always validly and intelligently, of course ).

I have to say that, from my point of view, it gets rather monotonous when everyone has the same opinions about the movies, especially all the "positives".

Which is precisely how I feel about the negatives. And they seem to be the main talking point these days - certainly in comparison with when RotK first came out. Perhaps these films just lose their gloss for some people after a time. Or perhaps it is just that the negative points are easier to make.

Although I am quite surprised that there have been quite so many negative points made about the EE, given that it includes many of the scenes that caused so much disappointment by their omission with the release of the theatrical version. Perhaps expectations were a little high, particularly after the TTT EE, which did much to make amends for what was undoubtedly (for me) the weakest of the (film) trilogy.

In any event. I can't be that much of a fanboy, as I have had the EE for nearly a week and still haven't unwrapped it, let alone watched it.

Edit: Thanks for providing the line, Boromir88. It does ring a bell now that you mention it. Of course, to be true to the book, Gandalf's line would have had to have been: "... the one they say no living man will kill."

[piosenniel]

Boromir88

‘The Pyre of Denethor’ is indeed where that quote comes from.

Here’s the scene:

For there were the servants of Denethor with swords and torches in their hands; but alone in the porch upon the topmost step stood Beregond, clad in the black and silver of the Guard; and he held the door against them. Two of them had already fallen to his sword, staining the hallows with their blood; and the others cursed him, calling him outlaw and traitor to his master.

Even as Gandalf and Pippin ran forward, they heard from within the house of the dead the voice of DEnethor crying: ‘Haste, haste! Do as I have bidden! Slay me this renegade! Or must I do it myself?’ Thereupon the door which Beregond held shut with his left hand was wrenched open, and there behind him stood the Lord of the City, tall and fell; a light like flame was in his eyes, and he held a drawn sword.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the coming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

[Boromir88]

Ok I remember that, thanks Pio and Essex.

[Sapphire_Flame]

The 4% off comes from Denethor. I am very sad that he wasn't redeemed a bit more.

BUT! Other than that, I loved the new scenes. I thought the Mouth of Sauron was brilliant. His posture and facial... er, oral expressions were great. Although I am surprised by Aragorn beheading him! Although, I guess PJ had license; Tolkien never did say how Mouth died. *shrug*

Anyway, very good, loved the new stuff, and can't wait to listen to the cast commentary (Gollum and Smeagol! Yay!).

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy, in a hurry ~

[Garen LiLorian]

He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

Huh. Now, maybe I'm missing something, but I never got Gandalf striking Denethor out of that. Isn't the "very stroke" Denethor striking at Beregond?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke,"

Actually, my reading is that "the very stroke" is the moving of the hand
upwards, not its hitting Denethor.
=======================

As for criticism seeming to be mostly negative, I think that's because it's
harder to write positive views on just about anything (other then gushing
about how nice something is) as opposed to analysing relative failings.
Witness the greater frequency of sports talk radio activity when teams are
going badly as opposed to successful.

For my part, when the films were first reported, I expected them to have a
"grade" of about "D", whereas I'd give them an overall grade of B-, with
FOTR being the best, and scenary and actor selections rating even higher.

Perhaps, changing my original views, the best PJ change was FOTR
XenaArwen, it does make movie sense, and her meeting Aragorn as he finds
Ethelas was the sexiest bit in the movies. Now if only they had cut her line:
"if you want him...." and had Frodo say:
"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me."
(Oh, well).