Metareferences and Intertextuality.

[radagastly]

This is interesting. A quick scan of the index for the Eddas (online) I found the following names:

Bifur, Bjorn, Bomburr, Dainn, Dori, Durinn, Dvalinn, Fili, Gandalfr, Frodi, Gimle, Gloinn, Kili, Nori, Ori, Thorinn, Thror.

I haven't read the Eddas so I don't know if these involve references to any particular personality or action or behavior on the part of any of these characters, or if he just used the names from the Eddas to influence the names he chose for the Dwarves etc. I think the reference is pretty obvious, though, and no doubt deliberate on Tolkien's part. Sort of like scanning the phone book to find unusual names for your own fiction.

[A_Brandybuck]

This is now my long version, I am not very kind with the expressions "meta-reference" and intertextuality' Please forgive my eventual faults. ;-)
I needed much time to elaborate, so my post overlaps with the post of radagastly in one case. ;-)

In Tolkien's own world, there are some parallels to old european myths, especially to nordic myths.

#1 – Edda:
In the Edda (nordic collection of legends, written down in Iceland and Norway hundreds of years ago), there is an epic called Völsungen. In this epic Andwari, a Dwarf, had possessed a magic Ring (Andvarinaut), which was stolen by a God of Fire Loki.
Andwari cursed all future keeper of this Ring. Then there was Fafnir, who killed his father to get this Ring. He took the Ring and guared it in a cave. In this cave the Ring poisoned him and his body, so that he transformed into a dragon or wyvern. After that he was slayn by Sigurd, who then possessed the Ring.

The Völsungen-epic ands shortly after this point, but nearly the same storyline, we find in the Nibelungen-Song. Doubtless it is based on the Völsungen. There is also an older version of the epic, in which the Ring is called Draupnir and was possessed by the godfather Odin. It was said, that this Ring was spawning. Every ninth night, there were 8 Rings more. The root of a great treasure. This Ring was also cursed and went to Fafnir (-> Völsungen), who was (as a wyvern) slayn from Siegfried (= Sigurd).
The Nibelungen-Song continues this story. The Nibelungen-Ring is the root of a great treasure (Nibelungen-treasure) and went to Siegfried, after he had slayn Fafnir.
Then the Ring is, after much trouble about the owning rights, one of the reasons, why Siegfried died. (Short version)

The connection to Tolkien is obvious, a cursed Ring, who poisoned his bearer gives it also by Tolkien. The cave of Fafnir reminds of Gollum's cave and changing. The idea of a Ring being the fundament of a great treasure is similar to Tolkien, where the Seven Dwarven-Rings are said to be the fundament of the Dwarven-treasure.

There are also some similarities of names in the Edda. We find lots of names in it, which are also in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Tolkien himself said, that he took them out of the Edda:
There is the question of nomenclature. The dwarf-names, and the wizard's, are from the Elder Edda. (Letter 25)

Thus there is much intertextuality in Tolkien's works.

#2 – Atlantis
The case of Atlantis is more or less equal. A high civilization lives on an island. This civilization is really far advanced in technology. Both islands will be swallowed by the sea. Tolkien himself said, that the Downfall of Númenor[is] a special variety of the Atlantis tradition (Letter 154) and that he has what some might call an Atlantis complex (Letter 163). He also dreamed of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands (Letter 257).
I think that here is a point, where we could call it nearly a meta-reference. Of the story of Atlantis is not much known, save there details, which Platon wrote down, but he heard only rumours. Tolkien took the story of Atlantis and put it into his own context. He wrote in Letter 276:
N[umenor] is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology."

#3 – Beowulf and Kalevala
Sadly I haven't read them, so I can't give you any parallels concerning them. I only have some quotes from Tolkien.
Beowulf:
Letter 25:
Beowulf is among my most valued sources; though it was not consiously present to my mind in the process of writing, in which the episode of the theft arose naturally (and almost inevitably) from the circumstances.
Beowulf influenced Tolkien very strong, but I can't say how strong, I don't read it. There are many quotes in his Letters concerning Beowulf.
Kalevala:
This Finnish-National-epic has influenced Tolkien's world also very strong (maybe much stronger).
He was immensely attracted by something in the air of the Kalevala,[...] But the legendarium, of which the Triology is part (the conclusion, was in an attempt to reorganize some of the Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own. (Letter 163)
We recover the story of the Children of Hurin in the tale of Kullervo, [i]the tragic tale [...] of which is Turin the hero: a figure that might be said [by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung [-> Edda], Oedipus and the Finnish Kullervo.

There are much more things, that he took out of other things (especially the languages, which I let out).

The central point of his intention is, that he wanted to write a collection of myths, legends or something similar for his England. He wanted to give England an own mythology, because England had no mythology, while other peoples around England have some great legends (Can be found in Letter 131 and indirectly in Book of Lost Tales).
My personal opinion is, that at the beginning of his writings, he took consciously myths from other nations (-> Kullervo) and put them into his own context. That is a wide spread thing. We only need to look to the Rings and the Edda. Parts of stories became reused in other legends in another context. He wrote his mythology in the style of the other mythologies, which had impressed him much. So he used while he was writing known schemas. He worked them in. This was also I think consciously (sometimes more, sometimes less). He mixed the contents of them to create his world (using intertextuality). Atlantis – Numenor was a special case, which can be traced back to his complex.
With his process of writing, his world was growing and changed from a mythology, which was dedicated to England, to an own world with own schemas. The old schemas, which he had adopted, were fading and replaced with his own schemas. Everyone, who has read the Book of Lost Tales could surely confirm this fact. The similarities to the nordic myths, which can be found in the actual status could be traced back to the beginning of his writing.

[Boromir88]

A wonderful post A_Brandybuck, Beowulf was definately an influence on Tolkien, and a good job explaining the Edda. Since Tolkien mentions using these sources he definately intended to use them for a purpose.

A wonderful post. There was this thread that contained a website to look at all the mythologies of Europe, and one was a Baltic myth about the battle of a "good wizard" and "wicked wizard." Unfortunately, I can't find that thread, or can't remember the website. It was a handy website that went in depth to the mythologies of Europe (including Beowulf, King Arthur...etc). I will have to search for the thread to find it again.

[ninlaith]

I think we can all agree upon one thing...if you read something you really like it sort of sticks to you forever. Tolkien had a major major affinity for Anglo-Saxon literature. In fact that was one of the subjects he studied at Oxford, but you all probably knew that. He was reading Beowulf while he was writing down the Hobbit. I believe he loved the book so much he couldn't help adding some of it to his own work. For example: a dragon resting on mounds of gold was in Beowulf which ties to our beloved Smaug, another congruence is when Beowulf arrived at Herod he was met by a guard who would not let them proceed which ties to the same incident in The Hobbit when they were met by the challege of goards blocking their path. Sorry if that's all a little vague. I must admit I have not read either of the books for a long time. I feel very remorseful for neglecting my Tolkien rituals. I'll get right on it.

[Boromir88]

I think we can all agree upon one thing...if you read something you really like it sort of sticks to you forever.

Exactly ninlaith, and that is the point behind metareferences and intertextuality. That anything (now adays) that is written in books, or made into movies, has been done before. So no piece of literature or film is entirely original, or entirely "new." It has ties back to previous works. I think you hit the nail on the head, when we read something we really like, it sticks with us.

I wonder if I should clear this up, or not, since you all seem to be getting the point, and posting some really nice stuff , but this was something I forgot to mention in my first post. The intentions of metareferences and intertextuality isn't to say "Ahhh, Tolkien took ideas, copied ideas from Beowulf, mythologies, religions...etc." It's ment to find out who influenced Tolkien (or other authors) to come up with their stories, and then to figure out for what purpose they were doing it for. No one has done that here, it's just something I forgot to mention. I've really enjoyed reading all the posts so far .

[Saraphim]

I happen to own a great book called Tolkien's Ring, written by David Day, I believe. In there it outlines most of the mythological and religious influences on Tolkien.

I very much admire the tactics of Metareference and Intertextuality. I think it not only gives homage to a certain writer or culture, (in the case of mythology) but it provides a good, solid base for a specific idea.

It's almost as if Tolkien thought "Alright, rings seem to be a good source of storytelling. We'll start with that and see what develops."

In a story I'm working on, there is a small side-plot that was partially inpired by a Japanese Anime called Trigun. This doesn't mean I copied the storyline or characters in any way, or even the basic idea. I simply found something I liked that seems to follow me around and lend itself to my story.

I think we can all agree upon one thing...if you read something you really like it sort of sticks to you forever.

...which is sort of my point exactly.

[Boromir88]

It's almost as if Tolkien thought "Alright, rings seem to be a good source of storytelling. We'll start with that and see what develops."

In a story I'm working on, there is a small side-plot that was partially inpired by a Japanese Anime called Trigun. This doesn't mean I copied the storyline or characters in any way, or even the basic idea. I simply found something I liked that seems to follow me around and lend itself to my story.

Exactly, there are only two things writers tend to do during a Literary "period." If that style of writing is popular, then they will continue on the trend. If they feel a need for a change, or just want to be different from everyone else, then they will go with the complete opposite of the trend, in hopes to start a new trend.

Hope your story goes well Saraphim .