Have you no pride?

[Fingolfin II]

Boro said:

Patriotism is another trait the Boromir seems to represent, as he's always talking about the "Men of Minas Tirith," and the "Men from my country."

True, but Aragorn also bandied his patriotism around a lot- the Dunedain, his heritage, Rangers of the North etc. Don't forget the incident with Hama at the doors of Meduseld- 'Death shall come to any man who draws Elendil's sword, save Elendil's heir'. So, as you said, patriotism is another type of pride.

This leads me to ask another question; how much pride is too much? As already illustrated in this thread, you need a certain amount of pride to have confidence in yourself and to accomplish things (e.g. Aragorn), yet too much pride and overconfidence in one's abilites can corrupt and bias decisions negatively (e.g. Denethor).

Humility is an important attribute in LotR. Aragorn possessed it and therefore his pride was counterbalanced, as Lhunardarwen said. Denethor on the other hand may have started off humble, yet he became more proud and this ultimately lead him to disaster. His pride led him to enforce his will on others, such as his Council and Faramir, and therefore, I believe that too much pride is bad (duh) and Tolkien used it as an example of one of the 7 Deadly Sins in LotR as a measure against humility.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

This leads me to ask another question; how much pride is too much?

I've been thinking...and I realized all pride is bad. The problem lies in the terminologies. There's pride in yourself, we call that self-confidence (and the feeling of achievement). There's pride in your country, that's patriotism. But both of this is "pride" in substantial amounts. I think pride is too much self-confidence, too much patriotism. Pride is the excess of these supposedly positive attitudes. That makes it bad in itself. And arrogance is a manifestation of pride, among others.

But English really is a confusing language...

[SamwiseGamgee]

Lhunardawen, I agree with you. Pride is an excess.

pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem

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[Boromir88]

Lhun- So you are saying there is no "good pride," that self-confidence and pride are two seperate things, similar, yet seperate? A nice thought, that I never considered before, and I think Samwise's definition supports that .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement? Is it not pride that I am feeling here? Because pride (in Lhuna and Samwise's sense) would wrap up this scenario in a bundle of contradiction.

There are echoes of Kant's moral theory here, that we should not feel too pleased with ourselves for doing things that are right and good and necessary anyway.

[Boromir88]

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement?

I think it comes down to the question of whether one believes that we should be proud about doing the "right" thing or not? This is a question that I often hear, is ok we did the "right" thing, but should we be proud of that? Since it was the right thing to do, we shouldn't be proud about it. For me, personally, I say you need to feel good about yourself, if you help someone feel proud about that, but others believe that since it actually was the "right" thing to do, then that means you shouldn't be proud. If that makes any sense at all.

I think this is one of the many topics that can't be answered, but it's fun to debate, and weigh in on other's views . Bottom line is I don't think anything in this thread is fully "right," or fully "wrong," just a matter of different opinions.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I am proud of the fact that I helped an old lady across the street today. Is this, then, a nonsensical statement? Is it not pride that I am feeling here? Because pride (in Lhuna and Samwise's sense) would wrap up this scenario in a bundle of contradiction.

Maybe you're not proud...just well-pleased. But you're right, I too have experienced being proud of doing something right. But I know it's pride when I feel the need to tell others about the good thing I've done. If not, I'm just pleased with myself. But I'm proud, more often than not.