The halls of mandos and elvish "free will" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 12-21-2004, 01:25 AM

Welcome to the Barrow-Downs, Thorondor

What we've been trying to find out in this thread, is, to an extent, limited by the sub-created world of Middle-Earth. The issue we were after was not to find relation between Tolkien's Catholicism and what happens in ME, but to find only the latter - i.e., what happens inside the [sub]world, not what particular beliefs affected Tolkien in [sub]creating this particular form of afterlife for elves or men inside his own [sub]created world

I do not intend to say you have no point there. What I'm driving at is, that though somehow touching the issue you raised, this particular thread does not deal with it directly

You may find it interesting (and more relevant) to take a look at the following discussions:

Tolkien, Lewis and Theology by InklingElf
LoTR - A spiritual Allegory? by Ardwenna
Tolkien and Philosophy by Hookbill the Goomba
10 Commandements for Middle Earth by Aerandir Carnesir

Side-touch on the issue may be found in Evil Things by Nirvana II, on the pages 2 and 3 of that latter thread, and in Acceptance of Mythology by Snowdog

Enjoy reading and posting

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-02-2005, 10:35 PM

It is certainly false that the Christian religion is ambiguous as to what happens after death. As a Christian, I can assure you that the Bible gives details in many places as to what happens after death.

Here are some verses that may be relevant (I'll leave you to look them up on your own if you wish):

Hebrews 9:27
Revelation 20:11-15
Luke 16:19-31

There are many others, but those are some basic ones. Basically, when you die, if you are a Christian you will go to heaven, which is described indepth in Revelation 21. If you are not a Christian you will go to hell, which is described in Luke 16:19-31.

It is, in fact, more complicated than this, but that's basically it.

This thread is very interesting to me, as you might imagine since I am a Christian. I have been reading an awesome novel by Ted Dekker called "Blink" that deals with some of these same issues of free will.

One of the main things I think we need to remember is that if there is a God, then as somebody once said (I think C.S. Lewis), we can no more comprehend Him than an earthworm can comprehend a man. When we try to understand Him in human terms (without using the Bible), we're doing a great exercise in futility.

Obviously, this discussion is not about God per se (God as described by Tolkien as Eru), but I think it has bearing on it. I HOPE it does, anyway; I hate to ramble on and miss the point, and I've done it before!

Finally, I love the new word "omnitemporal." Kudos to Selmo!

Osse · 01-07-2005, 05:48 AM

Yes, quite...
Anyways, I think this has been somewhat hijacked- what happens to the Men of ME after death? Who knows? Whether Tolkien meant to leave it as a parody of his own religion or not is not the issue - the issue is that Tolkien deliberately wrote it as being completely ambiguous - the way is unclear, and fear arises from that uncertainty. To me, it was purely a cunning root from which much of the plot or perceived plot of the books can be derived - many of the faults seen in the race of Men derive from this fear of death, from the uncertainty regarding the Doom of Men. The great catastrophe's often occur through a particular tribe or race becoming either too enamored in the afterlife or trying to avoid it completely - falling into building grander houses for the death than for the living or striving for immortality. Numenor is a fine example of this - a race declines through their fear (played like a harp by Sauron of course) of what lay beyond the fringes of their waking world. Whether Tolkien was using this as a parody for his own beliefs or not matters little - it is applicable to all cultures, religions and walks of life. It was a cunning literary device that one can relate to - it makes the culture of Man in ME akin to our own, after all, we are meant to be one and the same and helps us relate to them much more than the Elves - they are less aloof. This is one of the major ploys that helps us to relate to them and I'd say, (apart from the race meant to be us) the most important!

Regards,

Ossë

Mithalwen · 01-10-2005, 02:58 PM

I found this in a dictionary of Quotations thought it is from the Silmarillion and I think it is very interesting

"He (Eru) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is a fate to all things else"

So men have more free will than Elves .....

HerenIstarion · 01-10-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

He (Eru) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is a fate to all things else"

Once, in similar discussion (Evil Things) here I answered the quote with the following analogy:

Quote:

...the world is like train moving on rails, with elves having tickets on to the terminal station while Men keep jumping out of windows now and again. (Or, in more civilized mental picture, having tickets on to intermediary stations). Music is rails.

Or, to elaborate a point just a tiny bit - the free will is expressed by ability of choice, but the choice of elves is contained inside the 'train', whilst men leave it after short journey.

'All things else' of the quote determines the fate of the things of Arda, and includes animals and plants, as they do not have fëar, theirs being the mode of existence made up of matter entirely, and as matter is finite, so are they. Elves are included in 'all things else' as their fëar are bound with the world and doomed to remain there (though there is a hope for elves after the 'end of the world' too, see continuation of the discussion in the same thread)

I know, I think in analogies

Black ants, red ants...

davem · 01-10-2005, 04:41 PM

Well, H-I had a long discussion (which I think we were the only ones reading by the end of it

)n the Evil Things thread. I have to wonder about my learned friend's comment though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by H-I

'All things else' of the quote determines the fate of the things of Arda, and includes animals and plants, as they do not have fëar, theirs being the mode of existence made up of matter entirely, and as matter is finite, so are they.

As I'm not sure it squares with the following:

Quote:

The lncarnates have by the nature of sama the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hroa, for their fea is united to their hroa and its normal procedure is through the hroa, which is in itself part of Ea, without thought. Osanwe Kenta

If animal's 'mode of existence' is 'made up of matter entirely' then they would not have the capacity to think - & we know that some do - Shadowfax clearly thinks & understands language...

(There's also a particular fox - of course he could be one of the Maiar I suppose

)

HerenIstarion · 01-10-2005, 05:27 PM

Well, any exeption just underlines the rules, I reckon

For one, I may not be a good judge of animals and their fate in afterlife, being myself a human

For two, in ME, the latter version of what Huan was may be brought in to my add - animal raised by Valar to have ability of speech, but still no fëa

For three, I always had a feeling that hröa≠body and fëa≠mind, or if it does, equality is not precise, it is approximate. As in Christian theology, spirit≠soul, though the terms in layman's mouth may be interchangeable

For four, does the thought of the quote mean any thought? For surely, to move about, animals must have nervous systems, brains, and, therefore, some processes resembling thinking process of a human. But I suppose by thought the abstract thought is meant

But the stress of my previous post should have been more gravely put on fëar, rather than on matter - though in original plan the union of fëar and hröar was to be eternal, the taint brought into the matter --> hröar by Melkor/Morgoth brought about the need of redemption, and Arda Remade. Hence - all matter as it is now should be destroyed and remade. + Fall of Men (partially caused by effect tainted matter had on fëar of men, for the two affect each other)

But we've been through this before, haven't we?

PS And I do remember the fox which saw three hobbits sleeping under the three. Just don't ask.

12-21-2004, 01:25 AM	#1
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Welcome to the Barrow-Downs, Thorondor What we've been trying to find out in this thread, is, to an extent, limited by the sub-created world of Middle-Earth. The issue we were after was not to find relation between Tolkien's Catholicism and what happens in ME, but to find only the latter - i.e., what happens inside the [sub]world, not what particular beliefs affected Tolkien in [sub]creating this particular form of afterlife for elves or men inside his own [sub]created world I do not intend to say you have no point there. What I'm driving at is, that though somehow touching the issue you raised, this particular thread does not deal with it directly You may find it interesting (and more relevant) to take a look at the following discussions: Tolkien, Lewis and Theology by InklingElf LoTR - A spiritual Allegory? by Ardwenna Tolkien and Philosophy by Hookbill the Goomba 10 Commandements for Middle Earth by Aerandir Carnesir Side-touch on the issue may be found in Evil Things by Nirvana II, on the pages 2 and 3 of that latter thread, and in Acceptance of Mythology by Snowdog Enjoy reading and posting __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

01-02-2005, 10:35 PM	#2
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	It is certainly false that the Christian religion is ambiguous as to what happens after death. As a Christian, I can assure you that the Bible gives details in many places as to what happens after death. Here are some verses that may be relevant (I'll leave you to look them up on your own if you wish): Hebrews 9:27 Revelation 20:11-15 Luke 16:19-31 There are many others, but those are some basic ones. Basically, when you die, if you are a Christian you will go to heaven, which is described indepth in Revelation 21. If you are not a Christian you will go to hell, which is described in Luke 16:19-31. It is, in fact, more complicated than this, but that's basically it. This thread is very interesting to me, as you might imagine since I am a Christian. I have been reading an awesome novel by Ted Dekker called "Blink" that deals with some of these same issues of free will. One of the main things I think we need to remember is that if there is a God, then as somebody once said (I think C.S. Lewis), we can no more comprehend Him than an earthworm can comprehend a man. When we try to understand Him in human terms (without using the Bible), we're doing a great exercise in futility. Obviously, this discussion is not about God per se (God as described by Tolkien as Eru), but I think it has bearing on it. I HOPE it does, anyway; I hate to ramble on and miss the point, and I've done it before! Finally, I love the new word "omnitemporal." Kudos to Selmo! __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-07-2005, 05:48 AM	#3
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Yes, quite... Anyways, I think this has been somewhat hijacked- what happens to the Men of ME after death? Who knows? Whether Tolkien meant to leave it as a parody of his own religion or not is not the issue - the issue is that Tolkien deliberately wrote it as being completely ambiguous - the way is unclear, and fear arises from that uncertainty. To me, it was purely a cunning root from which much of the plot or perceived plot of the books can be derived - many of the faults seen in the race of Men derive from this fear of death, from the uncertainty regarding the Doom of Men. The great catastrophe's often occur through a particular tribe or race becoming either too enamored in the afterlife or trying to avoid it completely - falling into building grander houses for the death than for the living or striving for immortality. Numenor is a fine example of this - a race declines through their fear (played like a harp by Sauron of course) of what lay beyond the fringes of their waking world. Whether Tolkien was using this as a parody for his own beliefs or not matters little - it is applicable to all cultures, religions and walks of life. It was a cunning literary device that one can relate to - it makes the culture of Man in ME akin to our own, after all, we are meant to be one and the same and helps us relate to them much more than the Elves - they are less aloof. This is one of the major ploys that helps us to relate to them and I'd say, (apart from the race meant to be us) the most important! Regards, Ossë __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

01-10-2005, 02:58 PM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I found this in a dictionary of Quotations thought it is from the Silmarillion and I think it is very interesting "He (Eru) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is a fate to all things else" So men have more free will than Elves ..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-10-2005, 05:27 PM	#7
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	tricky davem Well, any exeption just underlines the rules, I reckon For one, I may not be a good judge of animals and their fate in afterlife, being myself a human For two, in ME, the latter version of what Huan was may be brought in to my add - animal raised by Valar to have ability of speech, but still no fëa For three, I always had a feeling that hröa≠body and fëa≠mind, or if it does, equality is not precise, it is approximate. As in Christian theology, spirit≠soul, though the terms in layman's mouth may be interchangeable For four, does the thought of the quote mean any thought? For surely, to move about, animals must have nervous systems, brains, and, therefore, some processes resembling thinking process of a human. But I suppose by thought the abstract thought is meant But the stress of my previous post should have been more gravely put on fëar, rather than on matter - though in original plan the union of fëar and hröar was to be eternal, the taint brought into the matter --> hröar by Melkor/Morgoth brought about the need of redemption, and Arda Remade. Hence - all matter as it is now should be destroyed and remade. + Fall of Men (partially caused by effect tainted matter had on fëar of men, for the two affect each other) But we've been through this before, haven't we? PS And I do remember the fox which saw three hobbits sleeping under the three. Just don't ask. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-10-2005 at 05:32 PM.