Have you no pride?

[SamwiseGamgee]

I don't think you should be proud, Eomer. Now I'm not as familiar with Kant as you will be- though I have heard he was a very heavy drinker- Horsemaster, but I think I'm possibly just restating what Emmanuel said when I say that you should not be proud of doing something which you are obliged to do for the greater good of our society's moral fibre.

Now, Eomer, had you said: 'I am proud of The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread, that would have been a different story altogether!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

As we all know Samwise, The Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread transcends debate, and thus cannot be used as an example in this thread.

But Boromir's thought is interesting. Are there questions in this thread that cannot be answered? Begging your pardon Sir, but that seems like a slightly defeatist attitude to me.

[Bungo Baggins]

I think Tolkien's deep-rooted Catholicism was the reason he saw great pride motivated by power as the beginning of one's downfall. He also knew enough about myths and religions to know pride is always evident before one falls: In Christianity, pride is often regarded as the first step to the fall and rebellion against God. In Buddhism, grasping after the self and the sense of ego is the chief of all cravings and the deepest root of ignorance. In the Indic religions pride, like ignorance, is a fetter that binds humans to the wheel of rebirth.

I think he also realized motives were key in whetherour pride corrupts us or not. Saruman, Sauron and Morgoth all were power hungry and possessed great pride and all paid the price. Aragorn had some pride for sure, but he was motivated by helping Frodo in his quest to destroy the ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ok, so if pride is bad then it is right that no hero who is doing good should have pride, yes? I cannot find anything which tells of Aragorn as being proud. Are, then, the heroes of the books without pride?


*Please excuse the use of the word 'hero', I realise that heroes can be flawed.*

[Boromir88]

This might help a bit Eomer. In the King of the Golden Hall, where Hama asks Aragorn to lay down Anduril....

"It is the will of Theoden," said Hama.

"It is not clear to me that the will of Theoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil's heir in Gondor."

"This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor," said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.

"This is idle talk," said Gandalf. "Needless is Theoden's demands, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."

Here Aragorn is trying to inforce power that he doesn't even have yet. He's not even King of Gondor yet, and he's trying to "override" Theoden's orders. Grant it Theoden's orders are petty, but Aragorn is simply saying "I King of Gondor (although he isn't yet) say I have more power then Theoden, in his own country."
I brought this up in another thread, and as someone points out, Aragorn shows his empire building desires. Like he wants to control both Gondor and Rohan, and he's trying to do it here with power he doesn't have. Lucky Gandalf is there, and GO HAMA! for standing your ground. (I never understood why PJ killed him off in the Warg scene).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I never understood that entire scene Boro.

Anyhow, this particular scene does not state that 'Gorn was proud, merely that he was a bit of a petulant so-and-so.


*In case anyone is wondering why we are debating this (I don't think I made it clear earlier), we are trying to find concrete proof that Aragorn had pride, rather than just presupposing it.*

[Garulf]

In TTT "The Riders of Rohan" Aragorn describes the Rohirrim to Legolas and Gimli saying:

"They are proud and willful (sp?), but they are true-hearted..."

Aragorn seems to treat pride as a vice, balanced by the fact that they are honest (as if to say that their pride is forgiven by their being "true-hearted"). However in many instances I remember statues of kings described as proud figures. I guess it all depends on perspective.