Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth

[Findegil]

As promised in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** I will provide the Death of Thingol as it could be without Mablung and with the note taken into account. §35 as suggested by Maédhros above must be left out also:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] after {he was dead} RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-49: Nauglath > Naugrim again.

RD-EX-51

and he did{ Fangluin} jeer at them mightily on their return

I would prefer:

and did he { Fangluin} jeer at them mightily on their return

. . . preserving the original word order.

RD-SL-20

I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached.

I'm just slightly perplexed here:

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18 {and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}}

Am I correct that RD-SL-18, RD-SL-20c, and RD-SL-21a indicated here are completely irrelevant, since the whole passage is deleted? It's only that I don't see the point of putting those changes in in such a case.

RD-SL-18

Secretly he let send to {the Indrafangs}[Lord Bodruith his kin] RD-SL-18 asking <Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>,

We need, for the grammar, to make this:

Secretly he let send to {the Indrafangs}[Lord Bodruith his kin] RD-SL-18 asking <Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them} [him], and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>,

Also I think perhaps a more straightforward substitution for "the Indrafangs" would be simply "Belegost".

RD-EX-55

The "did" for past tense here sounds a bit awkward to me (and this is an editorial addition if I read it right). I would rather say:

But the Dwarves of Nogrod prepare[d] their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name

RD-EX-56

Same thing here.

Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[did know], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one

I would say:

Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet} [knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one

RD-EX-58

I don't understand the addition of "at that time".

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a} these hunt with but small company of arms

"These" should be "this". But actually I would prefer "the", since there's no possibility of confusion concerning which hunt we are talking about.

The addition from TY is, of course, awkward. The phrase "somehow it must be contrived" was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and it's straightforward replacement "somehow they contrived it" is no better. But I suppose any emendation would have to be called stylistic. Nevertheless, I would in at least this particular case prefer a minor fix, like:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a} the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be} for they contrived it that Thingol {is} was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}>

Still awkward, but not quite as bad.

RD-EX-60

{Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sit in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes.

Couldn't we change this to present tense more straightforwardly with:

Now {is} [was] the king far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} [sat] in her bower and foreboding {is}[was] in her heart and eyes.

RD-EX-60

But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a editorial change{rat that gnaws the threads}thread[ is riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

This does not work as written. Perhaps what was meant was:

But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

RD-EX-61

Even at that word> RD-EX-61 <Sil77 Melian sat long in silence {beside Thingol the King}[in her bower]

The words "Even at that word" seem not to fit if they introduce Melian sitting long and in silence. I would delete them.

This long addition from QS77: does it have a source? If so, I'd rather follow the source than the '77. If not, I don't see any need to use all this text of CRT's invention here. We could, in fact cut straight from "Even at that word" to "Thingol lay dead", so:

Even at that word, <<SQ77 Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies>.

RD-EX-62

Again - wouldn't it be preferrable to use Q here rather than the '77? We shouldn't use CRT's text simply because we prefer it or because it's more vivid.

RD-EX-63

and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel.

This does not really make grammatical sense, I think. We could change "by" to "of". I don't have HoMe II at hand to check the original context of the prepositional phrase.

Also, another Nauglath > Naugrim here.

§40b (§25)

‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire.

Am I wrong, or does this refer to the Orcs that accompaniede the Dwarves in the original TN? I don't see how the editorial addition helps. I would delete this whole piece.

Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity.

The names "Naugladur", "Bodruith", and "Nielthi" all need thought ("Fangluin" is another old name, but I think it works fine in later Sindarin). I will research the latter two when I get a chance. "Naugladur" is interesting. If it is to be fit into later Sindarin it surely must mean "Dwarf-servant". One could suppose that it was a later name used anachronistically here, given because he entered into the service of Thingol (if only through his craftsmen). But all other "-dur" names I can think of denote friendship or service to the first element in the name. "Isildur" means "servant of the Moon", not "a Moon that is also a servant". So "Naugladur" ought to mean "servant of the Dwarves" - a very curious name for the lord of Belegost.

But that may be irrelevant. It's hard to see how the name fits, but unless some other etymology exists in Gnomish (and not in Sindarin), this is Tolkien's problem, not ours.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51 Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and":

Now one there was{ had been}, Fangluin the aged, RD-EX-51 {who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves. Yet now}and now did {Fangluin}he jeer at them mightily on their return, ...

Posted by Aiwendil:

RD-SL-20

I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached.

To which deletion did you reffer here? If it is the first sentence of §33, then this has been deleted because it was replaced by the following expansion RD-EX-54. I did show RD-SL-18, RD-SL-20c, and RD-SL-21a, which are rendered irrelevant in this sentence, because we did agree on them in the storyline discussion, and I wanted this text to show all developments starting from that text. In a more finished version I would deleat the now useless changes.

RD-SL-18:
"them" -> "him": Agreed.
"the Indrafangs" -> "Lord Bodruith his kin" or "Belegost":
I did insert Bodruith here because his name would be lost otherwise. But if the name bears a problem, as you thing it does, than this was a cacophany idea, and we will rather take "Belegost".

RD-EX-55 & RD-EX-56: Agreed.

RD-EX-58:
Without the addition the § would read:

§34 (§18) Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren Thingol was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur knew, that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

§37a:
"a hunt" -> "the hunt": Agreed.
The addition from TY: I agree that your sentece does read better, beside the fact that we should delet the "and" at the end of the first sentence. But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not. Thus I suggest:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity.

I took Q30 as a guideline, there it is said that: "Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Luthien."
But that might be wrong in view of TY and the famous note. I have rereade the development from Ab1 through Ab2 and the many stages of TY to the famous note. In other places I have argued that the phrases used do not change and that the lose of some details in TY is thus only caused by compresion. The same seems to be true here but teh note does change this. AB2 is in agrement with Q30:

502 Here the Dwarves came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand. ...

But already in the first draft of TY called 'A' by Christopher Tolkien, which alone of all these drafts does repreasent the story of Beren regaining the Silmaril from the Dwarves, reads:

502 The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel.

Since Christopher Tolkien writes in the § before "As the manuscript was originally made (in which condition I will distinguish it as 'A') the entries from 500 to the end, very brief, followed the first (pre-Lord of the Rings) version of The Tale of Years (see p. 342) closely: my father clearly had that in front of him, and did no more than make a fair copy with fuller entries, introducing virtually no new matter or dates not found in AB 2 (V.141 - 4)." Thus we could still argue that the absent of Melian from the fight in Doriath could still be caused by the further compression of the story from AB2 to TY, but we are not sure. It would again be intersting to read the version of 'TY' that was accomping AB2. I think that Melain was still seen as beeing in Menegroth when it was taken, because of TY 'C'. But first let's have TY 'B':

503 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. ...

This is again to short to be sure of the detailed chronology of Melians movment, but TY 'C' reads:

503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. ...

"But Melian escaped" is for me still an indication that she did witness the sake of Menegroth. TY 'D' reads nearly exactly like 'C' and I will not give it here. What then follows is only the note:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text. Thus it seems I was again blinded by the desire for textual details.

I will still go one with the comments to Aiwendils points since not all will be lost by the earlier depature of Melian.

RD-EX-60:
If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

"... {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] ...": Agreed.

RD-EX-61:
The long addition from Sil77 has no direct source as fare as I know. If you think we should not use it then we will skip it. For the new versin of it see further down.

RD-EX-62:
We have no other source for a the invasion into Doriath of the dwarves after the death of Thingol, beside the pure statment in the note. Thus I think the additon from Sil77 is needed her. And as fare as I have understood the old discussion between you and Lindil such addition are allowed in such circumstances.

RD-EX-63:
Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

§40b:

‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire.

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

About the names:
Naugladur: Can it not be meant as: "Obsessed (devoted) servant of the Dwarvish interrests". Such a meaning would very well fit the role he plays in RoD.
Bodruith: His name is not part of text as edited by us, if we do not insert him. So I think it would be better to skip him then to update the name.
Nielthi: Don't spent to much time on her name. It isn't a problem to skip the name but retain the role she plays anonymus.

What follows is the text for the story of Melian departing imidiatly after Thingols death:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years Then Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5 Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards that remained{ to her} and had fared not to the hunt{, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled and when then pursuer> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

This will have some follow-up changes in the next part. When we close the discussion on this point I will bring forth post with the changes in that thread.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text. Thus it seems I was again blinded by the desire for textual details.

I have to agree with that. But I still maintain my point that Melian leaves Menegroth to Ossiriand in order to warn Beren and Lúthien as to what happened in Menegroth.

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain.

I like this one better.

Regarding this:

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled and when then pursuer> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>.{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. {RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

I would make the following change:

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled {and when they pursue her> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>}.{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. {RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

I agree with this.

[Findegil]

Posted by Maédhros:

I have to agree with that. But I still maintain my point that Melian leaves Menegroth to Ossiriand in order to warn Beren and Lúthien as to what happened in Menegroth.

Agreed, and that is exactly what our §40c does say.

Regarding your changes in §40a and §40c:
I could not find any change introduced by you in §40a. Please explain what you meant to change.
In §40c I found an error in my editing which I have corrected (bad idea I know, sorry) (The halfe sentence "{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}" must not be added, if we are going to delet it, and the "{" before RD-SL-23 had slipt in unintentionly.)
To make things cleraer I will give my text here in plain text

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.

§38 (§22) Then Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards that remained and had fared not to the hunt valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long fled and when then pursuer came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. But Queen Melian went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

Reading it thus I find the break between §37b and §38 a bit hard. Maybe we should try to do it better. What follows is a more riscy editing:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>RD-EX-61.1 <TN Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; >and RD-EX-61.2<TN {Then}[she] did{ Gwendelin} know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found her realm at last>. RD-EX-61.3<TN Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower,> RD-EX-61.4<TN yet did she hearten those few guards that remained {to her}[in Menegroth] and had fared not to the hunt>RD-EX-61.5 <Q30 RD-SL-23 {Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm}, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.}> RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then}When Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards{ that remained to her and had fared not to the hunt, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. So{so} was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

In plain Text this reads:

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Then did Melian see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Doriath, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; and she did know well that her foreboding was true, and that doom had found her realm at last. Then went Melian unafraid forth from her bower, yet did she hearten those few guards that remained in Menegroth and had fared not to the hunt, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

§38 (§22) When Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. So was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

I hope the plain text may bring some clearness.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51:

Findegil wrote:

Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and"

I don't see a need for the extra "now".

RD-SL-20:

I was talking about this:

… could any such come thither RD-SL-20 {unaided by treachery from within}.>

Our removal of the treachery of the Elves in actual fact does not necessitate the removal of this hypothetical talk of the Dwarves.

RD-EX-58

Findegil wrote:

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision. In any case, if there were a problem, the addition of "at this time" surely would not solve it.

But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not.

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

Actually, though, I don't really see "somehow" as doing any canonical or story-line work. What is the difference between "they contrived it" and "somehow they contrived it"? If "they contrived it" then clearly "somehow they contrived it". And why should it be so important that we indicate to the reader that we do not know the precise manner of the contrivance? I see nothing wrong with simply stating that "they contrived it" and nothing more.

The problem I see with removing "somehow" is another one - specifically, it seems to me to be a stylistic revision, and that is something we have specifically decided not to engage in. Yet we have already accepted minimal emendations that are surely stylistic; and clearly the sentence as we have it is not something Tolkien would have let stand in a narrative.

So in the end I lean toward my former proposal, removing "somehow".

Findegil wrote:

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text

Yes, I think you are right.

RD-EX-60

Findegil wrote:

If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is} when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

I don't see a problem with "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company . . ."; I think it is clear from the context that we are moving back to Menegroth and back to a time before Thingol's death.

But I do see now (looking at TN) that we are making a jump backward in time that is not made in the original. So if you and Maedhros feel that the "wehn" is necessary, I can accept it.

RD-EX-63

Findegil wrote:

Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

The problem is the preposition. I have no problem with a cry growing to a fierce noise, because of the clash of steel. But "by" is the wrong word (and note that Tolkien did not use "by" in this way; the deletion of the illegible words results in a grammatical problem). We could say "grew to a fierce noise by reason of the clash of steel" or ". . . with the clash of steel" if you prefer either of those to ". . . of the clash of steel" (and as a matter of fact I suspect that either of those options preserves the intended meaning better than "of").

§40b

Findegil wrote:

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

And Maedhros:

I agree with this.

I'm afraid I still don't. Not to be petulant, but "to hold the sentence but change its meaning" is exactly what I'm against. I made a point (long ago) in the principles debate of specifying not only that we are not to alter Tolkien's words but also that we are not to alter their meaning. Now this particular situation is a minor one, but I think it's an important point, particularly in principle. In TN Naugladur says that what remains of goods or folk may be plundered by the rest of his host as they please. That is the total of the meaning of his statement. He does not in the original boast that he has brought the end of Doriath that even Morgoth could not accomplish. To put such an implication in our version is to invent a fact.

In most cases, it is the deletion of a piece of text that brings it away from Tolkien's intention, and that's why it's normally advisable to keep as much as we can. But we see that in cases like this one, the retention of the text brings it away from Tolkien's intention, because though the words are retained, their meaning is altered.

That's why I want to delete the reference to the Orcs.

About names:

Naugladur can surely stand.

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.

RD-SL-20:
I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle?
Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes.
In my view that would makes the story to explicit.

RD-EX-58:
Posted by Aiwendil:

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision.

Okay, if it doesn't create that picture in your mind the addition might be overdone. We will skip it.

§37a:
Posted by Aiwendil:

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

I feared it was like this. I don't see that the deletion of "somehow" is a prohibited stylistic change. We are dealing with a note that as it is, as your rightly observed, was never meant to form a part of any narrative. Thus if it would by a change not concealing some of the meaning of the note I would accept the deletion of somehow.
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms.{ and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}/No tale tells how they/ contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders{ and is there slain by the Dwarves.}>, RD-SL-22 <TNbut there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...

Concerning Melians departure:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.

RD-EX-60:
I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when".

RD-EX-63:
Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}enforced by the clash of steel."

§40:
Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get:

... Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’

About the names:
Naugladur: That's nice.

Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold?

Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

This name does not "fit" into later Sindarin for me, and I managed to find out why: after scrolling through my Dragon Flame Sindarin dictionary, I discovered that the only multisyllabic Sindarin words ending in -i are those which have the adjectival ending -ui or verb stems that have been conjugated into the infinitive (e.g. giri 'to shudder'). Otherwise, -i does not appear at all. The consonant cluster -lth- is pretty rare too, although it does occur in a couple verb stems.

Even so, the problem of final -i in mature Sindarin is enough to cause the name to be entirely dropped in my opinion, especially in the case of such a minor character whose name is only used a couple times. I very much doubt that Nielthi's name was intended to be the infinitive form of a verb *nielth-, which is the only thing it could be in Sindarin as later envisioned by Tolkien.

An adjective form Nielthui might work, but this would be rather pointless: the name, while working with the morphophonology of later Sindarin, would be changed unnecessarily from the original, and its meaning wouldn't be at all clear. But if you want to retain it, I believe that is the only way it could be done. Again, better to just eliminate it altogether.