Elves and Ringwraiths

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course the Nine Rings bestowed increased power on the Men who took them. That is rather the point of the Rings. They wouldn't have taken them otherwise. At first, they were able to use this power to further their own desires and so gain political power, wealth etc. Ultimately, however, the Nine Rings bound them to Sauron and, as davem has pointed out, their enhanced power was directed solely towards furthering his will.

Whether or not they became more powerful than Elves is not really the point. The fact is that they became Nazgul and that surely is not a desirable state of being, however powerful they became. Given their time again, with the benefit of hindsight, do you think that they would have made the same choices?

Good Day. My first post:

No, if the Nine Kings had known the outcome of these "gifts" they would have surely rejected the Rings. If we have a look at what these Men were initially looking for, we could enumerate might, wealth, prestige, longer life, wider realms, etc. Given that they, for a short time, were able to achieve these results with the help of the rings we have to confront these profane benefits with the price they have to pay for all that.

Losing one´s physical body, becoming an obedient servant of Sauron (who is indeed not famous for fair rewards), ever yearning for the One, living a restless life that is (similar to gollum´s) more "stretched" than prolonged, fearing the light of Aman in all its embodiments and worst of all not knowing to what end one, as a wraith, will come cannot demonstrate a king´s wishlist for the next decades. Where do their spirits go after they are defeated? Are they still allowed to leave Arda and lose the burden of being part of it?
The fate of men after their fall is not declared to the Valar, and even the most evil men will surely remember the power of Eru that they are subject to and reflect the deeds, either with shame or pride, before they die.

I guess the light of Aman can be more terrifying than Sauron´s devices of torture when all is over.

Men cannot escape fear, for it is part of both sides, good and evil. Being empowered by Sauron´s Rings does not add to their worthiness of their lives nor to the fulfillment of their human desires. Yet (I love this sentence in the Sil. altough it is not used in this context.) it is for them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfillment of their own being.

This issue strongly reminds me of Goethe´s Dr. Faustus but this would be too much off-topic.

Anyway, think twice before accept gifts from fair looking strangers

[Osse]

Please excuse the fact that I skew from the power of the Nazgul over the Elves in this one post...

Reading through the discussion on the Elvish capability to endure the fear of the undead, it seems to me that my own thoughts of the fear created by the Nazgul differ somewhat from some of yours.

I do not believe that the fear the Nine produce is the same as that of the spirits of fallen men - though spirits of fallen men they actually are. It is, as Tolkien outlines it, especially through the siege of the pelennor, a fear that debilitates - that drives any thought of fight from the mind of the subject. It's a crushing, morale quelling fear, a fear that there is no hope. It, I feel is a fear that is straight from the hatred of the Dark Lord - of destruction, perversion and death. I do not believe this to be the same fear that was awakened in those who came close to the shades of men in LOTR. I always saw the fear of the dead, as it was in ME, as being a very personal fear - a fear for your own safety, a fear of the unknown, and it was personalized in the case of men because it was so close to home - it affected them most because it was part of them, if that makes any sense.

The fear of the dead didn't affect Elves because it was alien to them - they were immortal, or rather the Halls of Mandos were known to them - it was rooted in their culture.

Whereas Men had no idea what the afterlife was for them - what the Doom of Man really entailed, or whether they themselves would fetch up as a wretched spirit such as the ones tormenting their fears. This of course was all subliminal - but it added, I believe to the fear felt by Men in the presence of their own kind's spirits. It was a personal fear. Typically, the Men of ME were scared or unsure of death - the Elves were not.

The fear of the Nazgul on the other hand could be seen as impersonal - it's about destruction - cares not who or what you are, but will enslave and destroy you, as the Nine themselves are enslaved and destroyed.

I guess this brings up the idea of the fear linked to the fate of the nine kings- is that why Men seem to have less sucess in weathering the fear? Does the fact that the Nine are really of their kindred affect them?

Your thoughts are appreciated!

Regards,
Ossë

[drigel]

osse - good points!
I would think an average elf's fear was concerned with the Nazgul's accutrements: poisoned / spellbound blades, etc. An Eldar's concern would be this too, as well as his/her abitlities or powers in the unseen arena vs. the particular Nazgul's.

As for men's basis in fear - I think all the points you brought up all add to the fear. It would seem to me that the combo you described (unsure about death and destruction) best summs it up.

[elfearz1]

I guess it depends on your point of view. I don't think they were more powerful. In some aspects it would seem they were, but in many ways they weren't. As soon as the ring was destroyed they were too so all their "power" in middle-earth in the end amounted to nothing. The elves are immortal and therefore have the better end of the deal in my opinion.

[Lhundulinwen]

I'm sorry, this is probably totally not what you meant, but here goes-

The average man and the average elf were probably pretty equal. But how many strictly average elves are there in LOTR? All the ones we get to know very much about are great in some way. Legolas was a prince, remember.

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man? Eowyn was of high birth, but she was the one who finally killed one of the nine. Not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Eomer, not even Legolas. She got the job done. By fate, happenstance, or whatever, she was the one who killed him. Personally, I think that is one of the best parts of the book!

A woman, not a man, might be greater than an elf. There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lhundulinwen

There were no girl Nazgul, after all. Kings fell, not Queens.

Do we know that for sure?

[arathorn]

The average man and the average elf were probably pretty equal

No man... you must look the hole scenario.
Eldar>>>Avari(wood elves)
Men(descendants from the mixed Edain)=Avari
Eldar>>>Men
Eldar=Numenoreans or some of the Edain Hadoreans(pure blood)

The average Eldar are many times described as being strong.
Much taller.
Sight far superior than of Men.
Better coordination(higher degree of concentration and ambidexterity).
More stamina.
More durable.
Higher metabolism and greater spiritual contact what makes their healing more effective.
Faster/more lithe.
better skills(crafts and fighting)
And there are certain degree of Spiritual power.

Here are some later statements and comparisons made by Tolkien.
1.“…and they were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir-trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.
2.“…that time the Noldor still walked the lands here, the most powerful and most beautiful children in the world, and their languages were still heard by mortals.”
3.“…The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible."
4.They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
5.'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
6.They (Elves) were thus capable of far greater and longer physical exertions (in pursuit of some dominant purpose of their minds) without weariness; they were not subject to diseases; they healed rapidly and completely after injuries that would have proved fatal to Men; and they could endure great physical pain for long periods. Their bodies could not, however, survive vital injuries, or violent assaults upon their structure; nor replace missing members (such as a hand hewn off).
7.In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe."
8."The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves..."
9. Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days.
And we must remember about Beren who could defeat Celegorm and was always said to be very strong and remember along with Turin because of his limbs. However when he and Finrod were captured who was the one who burst his bonds with spiritual/physical power and disarmed killed the werewolf?? Probably Beren wasn't stronger than Celegorm but more skilled and less arrogant.