Elves and the Tuatha de Danaans

[Frodo Baggins]

I was talking with a good friend of mine several weeks ago about a few things and they brought up the fact that Tolkien's inspiration for the Elves was based on a people of Irish legend, (that are based on fact, I assure you they were real people) known as the Tuatha de Danaan.

It is said that the Tuatha de Dannans lived in Ireland before the people known as Fomorians, who are related to the Phoenecians and came to Ireland from Spain and France. The Fomorians opressed the Danaans and eventually defeated them, but they did eventually merge into one people, the Celts. There are similarites between the Danaans and the Elves:

Aftern the Danaans were defeated the retreated to remote places and became known as Fairies or as some called them Elves or "shee" in the Irish. The Danaan are descrbed as Fairies that live underground in caves. In The Silmarillion it says "Then the Quendi wandered into the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and starlight[in Irish lore, fairies came out at night],and into the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-Earth." I believe in LOTR Galadriel also said something about elves that never left Middle-Earth dwindled and lived in caves.

It is said in Irish legend that the Danaans had vast knowledge, and were especially talented healers and Musicians (hint hint). It is also said that the Danaans carried long leaf-shaped swords(remember, many elvish swords were leaf-shaped). It is also noted that some of the outsiders that encountered them thought they were gods (remember htat the first men that came to Beleriand thought Finrod Felagund was one of the Valar).

So are they Elves? The de Danaans were real people, and no mistake for that, but legend has a wierd way of twisting reality. What do you think?

[Lindril Arvilya]

It is also said that the Danaans became gods, by bridging the gap between the worlds of Ireland and "heaven" (of their sort).
The Tribe of Danu (could be equalled to the "tribes of Eru", perhaps?) held four great treasures, which were corrupted by war, so the Danaans were exiled. Something like the war Feanor's people waged, resulting in an exile! (Let me know if I'm getting this wrong, it's entirely probable.) When the people made the choice of peace over war, they were redeemed and allowed to join their goddess Danu to become the gods of the new people, the Gaels. Galadriel, though tempted, makes the choice to refuse the Ring of Power-> and her people return to the West, their "heaven".

I'm a bit tired, so much may be a little off.

[Frodo Baggins]

Well well well....

I hadn't herad that part, Lindril. Thank you very much for the extra information.

[The Fifth]

Like you had said; legend can very easily get blown out of proportion, getting stretched and skewed until they are something that they are not. I must say that the history, as well as the characteristics, of the Danaans are eerily similar to the Elves. However, remember that Middle-Earth "ended" long ago, and we are in the Seventh Age now. I do not see how any Elves could survive, especially since if they do not leave for Valinor, they will eventually grow mortal, and perish. And, Tolkien based his work on many mythologies, as discussed in other threads, so it is possible that he borrowed some from the Celts and Irish.

In other words, I think that, although they are very similar, they aren't really the same. Much like how leopards and tigers are both felines, but they are not the same animal, if you can comprehend my rabbling.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: The Fifth ]

[Findegil]

It is also interresting that Tolkien mentioned the Tuatha de Dannan as a possible chapter in his early story about time travle "The Lost Road".

So we can be sure that he had know something about thar irish folk-lore.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Noxomanus]

considering these lions and tigers,they're not felines but PANTHERINES.It's like this:

Carnivora (placental mammalian predators)

Felida (cats,hyaenas,aardwolf,mongooses and "viverrids")

Felidae (all living cats and their closest family coming from the most recent common ancestor,wich had to be a felid as well)

Pantherinae (present knowledge places most cats in here,such as lions and tigers but also bobcats,servals,leopards and so on)

Anyway this is way off topic so i'll stop here [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Numenorean]

Excellent info Frodo and Lindril, I've often thought about these old connections too.
Just to add to this blurring of Fact & Myth: the Celts, Picts and Scots (B.C) all have tales concerning the occaisional visits to their shores of a 'tall, wise and beautiful' race sometimes refered to as the Ânanagé. Amongst the learned things, they are said to have taught barrow building, starcraft and stone circles to these lost ancient Britons.
Without any hard facts to go on, contemporary historians seem to favour the 'safe' theory that the Ânanagé were most probably ancient Egyptian in origin, but I think all we can say for certain is, who knows? Mysteries are great and history would be so boring without them!

[Noxomanus]

That's why I should never write a book,I'd tell everything and leave nothing to the imagination!!!!I always like to have everything explained.And even in Tolkiens work I try to fill the holes (like Blue Wizards,Entwives and such) as much as possible with my own stories!But that's private of course,I definately don't say you can't do this as well or that mines the best key to the mysteries.

[lindil]

"I do not see how any Elves could survive, especially since if they do not leave for Valinor, they will eventually grow mortal, and perish. "

Not quite it. Elves only perish when the world ends. They are 'immortal' within it. They do however fade meaning their bodies are 'consumed' by their spirits, i.e. they become less and less tangible.

We were of late discussing Tolkiens begining of the Legendarium in the HoM-E/UT Society thread, where it is clear [to me] that he had an experience of some sort of lingering and faded 'Elves'[or what he believed to be indeed that] in Warwick while in the early stages of composing the Book of Lost Tales [see chapter 1 of BoLT I - the poem at the nd entitled, Kortirion among the Trees. ]

Most fascinating still is that this poem is one of the only works that was completely revised in all of the three major stages of his work on the Legendarium, CJRT gives it in all 3 versions:

c. 1917? ~ the Lost Tales era

1937 - the pre/early LotR era

and 1962 - the Post LotR era [it was apparently considered for inclusion in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil!].

We are faced with a few possiblilities as I see it in this poem;
1- The Professor was imagining Elves so intemsly at the time that he decided to create a legend for them.

2- he made up a poem about about sensing their lingering presence whilst not really sensing anything at all, but just because he liked the idea.

3- He actually believed that he had experienced the presence of faded Faeries [as he first calls them] still lingering and going about their lives in the backways of Warwick. And it was these that in some as yet unexplored fashion inspired his 'Mythology for England'.

From the fact that he rewrote the poem 3 times with ever gerater clarity and that the poem, even though it no longer had a firm location in the midst of the Legendarium was still in some ways I think it's root, if not heart. In a more tangible way than either the Fall of Gondolin story or the Earendil fragment.

In my Weekly Article forum [see link below] I have included an extremely fascinating account from a very reputable and sober herbalist living in Minnesota. He tells several stories of modern encounters [close friends] witht the Fair Folk and how they came from Europe.

JRRT's poem Imram [ in Sauron defeated] also deals with the search for the land of th ELves by Irish monks. JRRT did not invent this genre, he was merely adding to it.

So we have several links of no minor significance that such a race in fact did exist, and may still. To me the fascinating question is, too what degree did they directly inspire the Silm and co. maybe none at all, maybe alot.

If anyone has any names of sources that go into the Tuatha de Danaans in detail, I would love to see them.

[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lore_master]

the ancient celts(not the Tathua De Dannen)came from the aryan nations. legend says that they left eygpt because they refused to participate in the persecutions of the hebrews.


the Tathua De Dannen were not a people, but a mythic race of god-like beings.
the name Tathua De Dannen means in the ancient celtic language of gaulic(which they had used in that time) people of the goddess Dannu.(the mother goddess)

the fomorians were another group of god-like beings, much like the titans of greeks and roman mythology. the Tathua De Dannen, were at constant war with the fomorians, who they eventualy drove into the sea.

[Rumil]

I've often wondered if Tolkien was influenced by the 'Arts and Crafts' artistic movement in pre World-War I Britain. This group of designers and architects built wonderful traditional-style (but with modern amenities) houses from traditional materials, stone, wood etc. and made 'rustic' furniture by hand. They disliked the way that mass production had led to the drab sameness of brick houses then springing up all over Britain. Of course the main drawback was that you needed to be rather wealthy to construct houses and furniture in this manner.

At the same sort of time there was a renewed interest in 'fairy stories', amongst the middle classes (a similar up-surge of interest occurred a few years ago in the UK). There was also a very famous photograph purporting to show 'fairies' (at the bottom of someone's garden), which has now been shown to be a fake. At the time there seems to have been a sort of UFO craze about the whole thing.

One feature of Warwick which has survived from those times is the 'pleasure gardens'. These were private walled gardens built on the outskirts of the town so that the richer town-dwellers (who lived in fairly close-packed houses in the old centre of town) could have somewhere to relax. I can imagine Tolkien being interested by the 'secret gardens' away from the hoi-polloi.

He originally thought of Warwick castle as Kor-Tirion. If I'm right I think it was still held by the Earl of Warwick in those days and was not open to the public by any means. This must have increased the mystery of the place no end.

By the way, Warwick Castle's definitely worth a visit if you happen to be in the Midlands (though admission is fairly pricey).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Rumil, I can well imagine a connection between the Arts and Crafts movement and Tolkien's Elves. In the LotR movies, the design of Elven houses and artifacts was inspired by Art Nouveau, which is closely related. (Celtic influence is also evident - these elements were discussed on the Art nouveau thread on the Movies forum last year.)

Back to the main topic...

[Frodo Baggins]

Actually Lore-master The Tuatha de Danaan were a real race. After they were ruined by theur conquerors the Fomorians they eventually mixed with them. The Fomorians were a breed of dark haried Celts from the Iberian Peninsula that may very well have had their origins in Phoenecia. Of course the name Tuatha de Danaan "people of the goddess Danu" is mythical. It seems that these fair people with light hair were quite familiar with arts of healing and magic. Of course, in the legends, both the Fomorians and the Danaans had Druids, and things got a bit nasty when a Fomorian and Danaan druid got in a fight.
It is said that the fair haired Celts are descended of these fair haired people, whoever they were. while the dark haired Celts are descended of the Iberian Fomorians.
History becomes legend and legend becomes myth, and just like a the rather unknown Arthur dux Bellorum and Uther Pendragon who were blown up into the great Arthur of Camelot, the de Danaas got blown out of proportion by the poetical liscence of bards and poets.

[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Bill Ferny]

FB, there were a number of inaccuracies in your original post, but the insistence that the Tuatha De Danann were a real race of people is a bit over the top. One can say the peoples of Celtic mythology are based on actual pre-Celtic races. To say the Celts were the first peoples to inhabit the isles is ludicrous, but linking pre-Celtic peoples to dark haired modern people is equally ludicrous, and smacks of New Age Gnosticism. Unfortunately, Celtic (especially Irish-Celtic) mythology has been increasingly taken over by people with quasi-religious agendas. What are the primary sources that you are using?

I think Tolkien’s elves are based on the Celtic mythologies of the Tuatha De Danann, especially those of the Aes Sídhe. The parallels are too many to be overlooked. At the same time, I think we can accept with some certainty that Tolkien wasn’t drawing his knowledge of the Aes Sídhe from sources that linked the Formors to more modern dark haired peoples.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I just have to say this is a very educational and fascinating thread. I've learnt a lot- so thank you! I'm going to study History at uni, so the more I know the happier I am. And a little off topic I must add in the Wheel of Time there are a group of people called the Tuatha'an who do not commit any violence. Is there anything like that in the Tuatha de Danaans?

[the real findorfin]

How interesting, very fascinating read.

Hey Lyra, don't forget the Aes Sedai, sounds a bit like Aes Sidhe. Methinks that Robert Jordan may know his mythology.

[manaratowen]

there is a lot written about the tuatha. a good book to learn more is "celtic magic" by d. j. conway. or any book on wicca. i have a couple of references from this book and another one, but they are kinda long, and its pretty late here, so im not gonna type it all out. but considering that the tuatha lived in something called a sid or siod (the plural would be sidhe or side, which means a round barrow, mound or hill) i think tolkien weaved a bit of all kinds of myth and religions into all of his charecters. but this is just my thought.

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Manaratowen.

Personally I have found the Wiccan stuff I have glanced at to be full of poor scholarship and half-baked 'magic' that would be far more likely to summon demons than any Elves [if they do exist]. But that's my take based largely from long since abandoned 'Golden Dawn' days.

But don't let my critique detract from my welcome!

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Frodo Baggins]

I am writing this because I feel as if I should clear my name. My claim has nothing to do with wicca, half-baked magic, gnosticism or asceticism. Bill Ferny, I took ALL my information from a scholarly work by the title of "Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions" written by James Bonwick. Bonwick was a scholar of ancient religions, he also wrote other books that were similar, such as one on Egyptian mythology and religion. Bonwick said he wrote his book for those who wished to study the subject but had less time than some.

Now Ferny I did not say the Celts were the first to settle Ireland, the Celts came after the Tuaths, who may have had to deal with another race before them. Here is what I have read. Bonwick begins by saying "By far the most interesting of the peoples that formerly inhabited Ireland were the Tuaths, or the Tuatha de Danaans." He says they were men, gods or fairies. He said they came from the east and stopped in at Greece and gained some knowledge from there. Some people associate them to the Tribe of Dan or the Dedanim in the Bible, I personally thing that's pushing it quite a bit. It also says that The Tuaths had to deal with a race known as the Firbolgs when they got to Ireland. After they were out of the way, they settled quite nicely. Some say the Danaan come from the Phoenicians. About 200 years later, the Celts, also known as the Milesians because they were ruled by Milesius, came from Iberia (Spain). Well to make a long story shirt (I could say more) the Milesian Celts and the Tuaths did not get along well. After much fighting, the Tuaths were defeated and fled undergound and to the hills for their lives. That is where legend begins. The Tuaths eventuallly came to be seen as gods and the Irish Sidhe or Shee, fairies or more nearly translated, elves. Legends say that sometimes mortals would become fairy kings and live in the hills with the fairies. This could be that sometimes people were either captured by the Tuaths or willingly lived with, also explaining the poeple that were spirited away by fairies. The mythic fairy caves and fairy hills such as Shee Beg and Shee More were perhaps dwelling places of the hiding Tuaths. It has been said that the fair haired Cletic peoples we see today are descended of the Tuaths, and the dark-haired, fair-skinned Celtic people are descended of the Iberian Milesians.

The Tuatha de Danaan suffer from the same fate as Arthur Dux Bellorum. Arthur Dux Bellorum (lord od battles) was a roamized Britton that was the basis for the mythical King Arthur. But Dux Bellorum never has a wife named Guinevere, never has a wizard named Merlin as a councillor, never had a round table, never had a Lancelot, or a Gawain, nor a Patrice or a Galahad, myth blew it all out of proportion. The de Danaans sufferd the same fate, history became legend, legend became myth and a very human people became god-like magical beings. Even their name Tuatha de Danaan "people of the goddess Danu" suggests mythical qualites.

[Bill Ferny]

Ah, well that explains it. Dr. James Bonwick was a nineteenth century speculative historian, whose specialty was Egyptology. He, of course, worked without the benefit of modern archaeology, and he is equally known for his fanciful theories as he is for his research.

The story of the Partholons, Firbolgs, Formors, Tuatha De Danann and Milesians is contained in the Leabhar Gabhala, or “Book of Invasions”, part of the Mythological Cycle, a collection of Celtic mythology compiled and, of course, edited by 12th century Christian monks. The earliest origin for these myths is the late centuries BC, and these stories are based squarely on other similar Celtic myths from the continent.

The Firbolgs are the only above race whose existence is possible given what we know from modern archaeology, but it would be a stretch to connect the people of the Leabhar Gabhala to the pre-Celtic peoples of Britain. Such a claim, in the end, is supported only by the fact that the firbolgs of the Leabhar Gabhala are the most “human” of these mythical races.

The most interesting of the above races is the Tuatha De Danann, whose leading characters in the Leabhar Gabhala have direct counterparts with Celtic gods of other mythological cycles. Goibhniu is paralleled by the Welsh smith god, Gofannon from the Mabinogian. Ogma is paralleled by Ogmios, the Gaulish god of manners and eloquence. Nuadu is paralleled by the British god Nodens, and the Welsh figure Nudd. It is obvious that the 12th century monks de-deified a mythological race that was clearly divine in oral Celtic mythology.

It was a natural thing for the Celtic peoples to connect these mythical races of their popular culture with their landscape. English and Irish landscape is dotted by remnants of a rather mysterious pre-Celtic people. How much more would it have been in 250 BC. The Irish countryside was perfect for Celtic myth. For example, the mound temple of Newgrange was associated with the sidh of the Tuatha De Danann, and it was considered the home of Oenghus, the Celtic god of love. However, modern archaeology tells us that the temple of Newgrange was constructed by an ancient pre-Celtic people, circa. 3500 BC (before the pyramids, no less), and was part of a cemetery complex. What the Celtic people thought was a passageway of the Tuatha De Danann into the mystical Otherworld or the residence of a god of love, was in reality a gigantic cairn.

The mythology of the Celtic people, a people who kept no written records, possessed no scientific means of investigating cultures, and arrived rather late in comparison (between 400 BC and 250 BC), is simply not a good source of knowledge for peoples who had inhabited the Isles thousands of years prior to the arrival of the Celtic peoples. From Bonwick’s nineteenth century perspective the Leabhar Gabhala seemed to carry a great measure of authority for explaining the ancient peoples of Ireland. However, it is the mythology of comparatively late-comers that was further corrupted by the editing of 12th century Christians.

In short, Bonwick’s theories and opinions based on the Leabhar Gabhala do not pass the litmus test of modern archaeology. The Leabhar Gabhala tell us about the Celts, not the ancient peoples of the Isles, and it certainly doesn’t tell us anything about the origins of fair or dark haired people. The later is definitely one of Bronwick’s fanciful theories.

For information about the pre-Celtic peoples of Ireland, the following books will be far more enlightening than Bonwick’s:

Brennan, Martin. The Stones of Time; Calendars, Sundials, and Stone Chambers of Ancient Ireland.

Burl, Aubrey. Circles of Stone; The Prehistoric Rings of Britain and Ireland, From Carnac to Callanish; The Prehistoric Stone Rows and Avenues of Britain, Ireland and Brittany, and A Guide to the Stone Circles of Britain, Ireland and Brittany.

Flanagan, Laurence. Ancient Ireland; Life Before the Celts.

Thomas, Neill L. Irish Symbols of 3500 BC.

O’Kelly, Claire and Michael J. Early Ireland; An Introduction to Irish Prehistory, Newgrange; Archaeology, Art and Legend.

Just to clear some stuff up:

Now Ferny I did not say the Celts were the first to settle Ireland…

You misunderstood me; I didn’t say you did.

Are you referring to Lucius Artorius Castus when you use the name Arthur Dux Bellorum? Lucius Artorius Castus was a Roman perfect in the late second century AD who fought a number of battles along Hadrian’s Wall against the Picts. He was given the title “dux” that means “leader”. While Lucius Artorius Castus was quite a guy, he alone can’t be the only historical figure that helped define the legendary and mythological King Arthur. What about Magnus Maximus and Ambrosius Aurelianus? Riothamus is probably the best candidate for the historical Arthur. Riothamus (5th century) was known as “supreme king” in England, and he led an invasion of the continent, was betrayed and defeated, and fled to a Burgundian town to die. Is it any surprise that that town was Avallon?

Edit: My wife, who’s the real archaeologist in the family, before telling me to stop being a know-it-all and to get back to work, suggested that I add to the book list:

Sherrat, Andrew. Economy and Society in Prehistoric Europe; Changing Perspectives.

Castleden, Rodney. The Stonehenge People; An Exploration of Life in Neolithic Britain, 4700-2000 BC.

Also, while I’m at it, a translation of the Leabhar Gabhala by Jeffrey Gantz is available in his Early Irish Myths and Sagas. I’ve searched the On-line Medieval and Classical Library and ORB but was unable to find an on-line text.

[ May 24, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Lalaith]

What is being discussed here is on the one hand a mythology and on the other a distant historical past, one of which may or may not help explain the other.
There are so many theories about the Tuatha de Danaan (there's no 's' on the end btw), the Firbolgs, and so on, and few can be discredited or proven.
Egyptologists have a wealth of archaelogical material and ancient written records with which to make sense of the past, but those who are exploring the roots of Celtic culture don't have the same tools. There are even some scholars who now claim there was no such thing as the Celts!
I think that Tolkien was influenced by Irish myths, but not excessively. I think there were other things that influenced him more. Judging by the languages he invented - he loved Finnish on which I think Quenya was based, but there is little evidence of Irish linguistic influence.

[Scott]

Lalaith,
While you were right to say that Quenya was not based upon Brythonic languages (it was based upon Finnish, Greek, and mainly Latin) Sindarin however was based upon Brythonic languages immensely.

To quote Ardalambion,
"A Welsh- or Celtic-sounding language was present in Tolkien's mythos from the beginning. This language was originally called Gnomish or I·Lam na·Ngoldathon, "the tongue of the Gnomes (Noldor)"
and,
"In 1954, in Letters:176, Tolkien stated that "the living language of the Western Elves (Sindarin or Grey-elven) is the one usually met [in LotR], especially in names. This is derived from an origin common to it and Quenya, but the changes have been deliberately devised to give it a linguistic character very like (though not identical with) British-Welsh: because that character is one I find, in some linguistic moods, very attractive; and because it seems to fit the rather 'Celtic' type of legends and stories told of its speakers". Later, he found that "this element in the tale has given perhaps more pleasure to more readers than anything else in it" (MC:197)."
Since the language of the Irish and English oriented celts was much the same and stemmed from one another, I think that it isn't much of a stretch at all to say that some of Tolkien's languages were influenced by Irish languages, at least Sindarin was (and of course Ilkorin) was.

[Lalaith]

Ah, but Irish is Goidelic, not Brythonic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Scott]

By Brythonic I meant all languages of the British Isles (Ireland, England...). That would include Gaelic - Irish, Welsh, Scottish, etc. I guess Brythonic might be misleading if regarded strictly as the southern grouping of Celtic languages, however www.dictionary.com yields the definition of Brythonic I was referring to.

"Brit·ton·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (br-tnk) also Bry·thon·ic (-thn-)
n.
The subdivision of the Insular Celtic languages that includes Welsh, Breton, and Cornish.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Ultimately from Latin Brittons, Britons. See Briton.]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Bry·thon·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (br-thnk)
adj.
Of or relating to the Brythons or their language or culture.
n.
Variant of Brittonic.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved."

So I think I'm covered. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Bill Ferny]

Lalaith is correct. Welsh, Breton and the extinct Cornish were not spoken in Ireland. Did Tolkien know Gaelic?

However, this is splitting hairs. Both Goidhelic and Brythonic languages have a common Celtic root. At any rate, one does not have to know the language to know the mythology, and the mythologies of the Goidhelic speaking Celts is intimately related to the mythologies of the Brythonic speaking Celts. JRR Tolkien, if he had knowledge of Celtic mythology, would have had knowledge of Irish Celtic mythology whether he knows Goidhelic languages or not. Remember, the Leabhar Gabhala was first compiled and written in medieval Latin.

[Frodo Baggins]

Well I don't know about Tolkien knowing Gaelic, but he certainly knew Anglo-Saxon quite well. He surely had to know enough Welsh or other Goidelic to invent Sindarin, since Sindarin is the more well developed language.

What I have read is the Brythonic languages are Welsh, Gaulish, Breton and Cornish, while the other branch of the Celtic languages are Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic and Manx. If you look at a map you can almost draw a line between each section of the language.

[The Fifth]

It is sometimes true that old sources can be unreliable, but do you think there are many new sources that say different things? The Danaan 'lived' thousands of years ago. They were legends, and remain so today. The whole point of this thread was that Frodo was comparing Elves to be similar to the Tuatha de Danaan. It is his own thought, and he researched it. But apparently these sources are 'unreliable'. Therefore Frodo is wrong and shameful to * gasp * find similarities between these two mythological people. That is what they are -- myths! Legends! They MAY have been real people, but that is not what matters right now.

[ May 26, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[manaratowen]

i may not be as well educated as most of these posts sound, but, reading passages from my wicca books which are " full of poor scolarship and half baked 'magic' ", i am of the belief that tolkien took any form of legend and mythos including thier respective langues, and brought together a wonderful piece of literiture. you can look up and resurch any religion, including wicca, and find a piece of it in his writtings. but, again, this is only my point of view.

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: manaratowen ]

[Lalaith]

To be sure, Scott would be bringing upon himself the wrath of all the people of the Emerald Isle, little and large, by calling it part of the British Isles, begorrah... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

To continue with the hairsplitting...Brythonic languages are as related to Goidelic ones as the English language is to German. Both English and German belong to the Germanic language group, but they are not the same thing, are they? Anglo-Saxon is another Germanic language, it is not Celtic.
But back to more serious points. I would reiterate my original assertion. Tolkien knew Irish mythology, of course, and was influenced by it, but not as much as he was by that of Northern Europe. I think I remember reading some mildly scathing things he said about Celtic culture? Perhaps someone else can give chapter and verse...

[Bill Ferny]

Note to forum: I realize that this forum is a free exchange of ideas related to the life and work of JRR Tolkien, a free exchange between all community members, each member deserving respect and courtesy. All are free to disagree with me or ignore my posts. If you disagree with something I write on this forum, you are afforded by forum policies to write posts in disagreement with me or to ignore my posts. If you consider any of my posts as an effort to beat down you or anyone else you are more than welcome to exercise a degree of maturity, respect and intelligence by addressing me via PM, simply letting the issue drop by ignoring my posts, or rating me down.

Fifth, you are correct in illustrating the point that the Tuatha De Danann are a mythological race. That was the point of my post, albeit put rather long-windedly. I do agree with Frodo Baggins in that Tolkien was, at least indirectly, influenced by Irish Celtic mythology. It is important, though, to understand clear definitions and the boundaries of the terms we are throwing around. I don’t think that Tolkien was influenced by 19th century historical speculations, but by the actual stories in the mythological cycle.

In response to your question, Fifth, (i.e. “It is sometimes true that old sources can be unreliable, but do you think there are many new sources that say different things?”): There are. I provided a bibliography, all of which are very good books.

David Day writes in Tolkien’s Ring:

Tolkien’s Elves are not a race of pixies. They are a powerful, full-blooded people who closely resemble the pre-human Irish race of immortals call the Tuatha Dé Danann. Like the Tuatha Dé Danann, Tolkien’s Elves are taller and stronger than mortals, are incapable of suffering sickness, are possessed of more than human beauty, and are filled with greater wisdom in all things. They possess talismans, jewels and weapons that humans might consider magical in their powers. They ride supernatural horses and understand the languages of animals. They love song, poetry and music - all of which they compose and perform perfectly.

The Tuatha Dé Danann gradually withdrew from Ireland as mortal men migrated there from the east. With his ever-present theme of the dwindling of Elvish power on Middle-earth, Tolkien was following the tradition of the Celtic myth. The Elves’ westward sailings to timeless immortal realms across the sea, while the human race remained behind and usurped a mortal, diminished world trapped in time, were very much the theme of the diminishing of the Tuatha Dé Danann. (80)

and

Tolkien follows the Celtic tradition that suggests that immortals cannot survive in a mortal world; that they can remain only at the cost of their powers diminishing. Ultimately, there is a choice between remaining in the mortal world and leaving it forever for another immortal timeless world beyond the reach of human understanding. (81)

While Day’s book frustratingly lacks annotation and references, I think he is spot-on concerning this observation, as he is in all of chapter 8 (Celtic and Saxon Myths). Coupled by the Formor’s evil, one-eyed god-king, Balor (81), and the parallel between the Celtic “lady in white” and Tolkien’s description of Galadriel as “the White Lady” (82), Day constructs a pretty convincing argument that Tolkien was influenced by Irish Celtic mythology.

you can look up and resurch any religion, including wicca, and find a piece of it in his writtings.

Or can a Wiccan, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, or whatever, pick up Tolkien and see a piece of her or his beliefs there? Attempting to see the objective influences on the creative thought of JRR Tolkien is very different from providing his work with applicability to the individual reader. The question presented here by Frodo Baggins, and by others in other threads isn’t a hapless exercise in cultural relativism, but a fruitful pursuit, carried out by many others who have been published, to delve the depths of one of the more brilliant minds of the 20th century.

Edit: Capitalized “Wiccan”.

[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Edit: Removed some indirectly offensive material.

[ May 26, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Bill Ferny]

Lalaith, we parallel posted.

I would reiterate my original assertion. Tolkien knew Irish mythology, of course, and was influenced by it, but not as much as he was by that of Northern Europe.

I don’t think that Frodo Baggins is saying that Tolkien was more influenced by Irish mythology than any other, but that Tolkien’s construction of Elves was influenced by a certain aspect of Irish mythology. To be honest, I see a more obvious connection between the Tuatha De Danann and Tolkien’s elves, than, for example, between themes in Beowulf and themes in LotR that seem to me, at least, to be more abstract (of course, I do know what Tolkien, himself, has written in this regard).

[Calavanya]

Wahhh! So many things said. Well, I study this at university, Anglistics, not the Celtology, but... First of all, the first people on the British isles were so called Iberians, as far as we know they are the first. Then came the Celts. The legend of Tuatha De Daanan is Celtic. Tuatha were spiritual beings, meaning they weren't mortals. In those times they inhabited this, let's say, dimension and the spiritual beings lived on this, "material" world together with people, but on some distance. As people started spreading, basically there wasn't enough space for both, bla, bla, there was war adn the Tuatha were exiled from this world. There are still some (by belief) connections between the two worlds, such as the trees, and that's why the old Celts held trees as sacred and built circular settlements around the trees. So, this is in short, if you are interested... Also, so called "pagan" or "wiccan" religion is also Celtic, practiced by ancient Druids. The religion may have developed in many directions, but the Druids were scientists, scholars and healers, who believed that knowledge can be a dangerous weapon in the hands of the unwise and ignorant. Believe it or not... You also have people today calling themselves Druids, ones practicing this, others that, so who would know...

[Calavanya]

And, yes, Bill Ferny, I agree with you that noone should be criticized for their opinion. This is a disscussion, respect each other, people. Secondly, different literature states different theories. Does it really matter which race, nation, people, whatever, have influenced Tolkien the most. He was a wide educated man, interested both in Celtic and Norse mythology, as well as Anglo-Saxon. He stated once how he wanted to create an Anglo-Saxon legend, something that would be remembered as English, as the Celts and Norse had so many. So, there are elves in many cultures, and godlike creatures and all that. I think Tolkien has created something beautiful and marvelous and I can explore it and try to enter this world, but there is more than one answer here that's correct. Tolken may have been Catholic, but he was tolerant and accepted his origins, and was interested in all other cultures without prejudice (i think).

[Lalaith]

Oh, I found that quote I mentioned, when he was scathing about Celtic culture. It's from a letter dated 1937 (and actually a bit harsher than I think than he really meant it)

"I do know Celtic things and feel for them a certain distaste. They are in fact 'mad',"

[Bill Ferny]

I wonder if Tolkien’s use of quotation marks around the word “mad” indicates a reference to Strabo who wrote about the Celts: “The whole race is war mad.” Is it possible that Tolkien used Celtic imagery when describing the Easterlings or other “fallen” peoples of Middle Earth? Maybe a good topic for another thread.

[Frodo Baggins]

"The Irish are the men that God made mad, for all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad." I do not remember where I read this quote, but this could have been a bit what Tolkien meant. These English are so darned prejudiced (dripping with sarcasm I am one)

Oh and I missspoke above, Welsh is Brythonic not Goidelic.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Yes, mind your P's and Q's.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Sorry, old Celtologist joke there. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

To speak the truth, I think it's impossible to confirm whether the Tuatha de Danann really lived or not. Since their "time" was so long ago, much of what we know about them was passed on through oral traditions. Each bard/poet traveled from hall to hall and keep to keep, telling his stories, and depending on his audience, he would tell them slightly differently. For example, I'm sure that he would simplify them for children, and for an adult audience, go into all the little details.
All myths are like that. I will use the Hindu epic The Mahabharata as an example since I'm Indian, and I am most familiar with it. I hope at least one person out there has heard of it. We have no real way of telling whether or not the Kauravas and Pandavas really existed. There have been some archaeological excavations recently that show that the Battle of Kurukshetra might have actually occurred, and that an island civilization sank of the coast of Gujarat (which would correspond to Dwaraka, the home of Lord Krishna).
It's very hard to tell whether or not these myths are "true" considering the amount of poetic license that bards and poets were given in ancient times. It would be rather immature to insist on either viewpoint, rather than accepting a little bit of both.

[Calavanya]

Well, I agree about the warfare. Though, can you name one culture that wasn't blood-thirsty, so to speak. Except maybe for the Iberians I mentioned earlier. They were the people who didn't fight much, they mainly collected fruit, or whatever. I think their origins are African, but this tribe came from Europe to the isles, trying to find a peaceful land. Actually, these people have entered the Celtic legends, being small, dark-haired and pale-skinned. They thought them strange and elvish-like. There you have the misterious forest people, for they could hide easely and knew their surroundings well. Most of the temples were built by them, but I think that the Celts have started with the people sacrifying thing. So, the Iberians were astrologists and all that. But I'm getting away from the topic...

[Finwe]

Perhaps that is where the "dark Irish" bloodlines come from. I remember reading somewhere that dark people were considered "freaks" and "fairies" by all the other lighter people, and racial prejudices could have been what started it all.