Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Captain of Despair]

I agree that Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking. That said, I don't hate the scene because I am a huge fan of the Witchking and would enjoy seeing him beat Gandalf, but Gandalf shouldn't be defeated so easily. Actually, my biggest problem with the scene is the way the WK enters so undramatically. They should have made a bigger deal out of his arrival if they were going to do the scene that way.

[Gurthang]

What I disliked most about that scene was Gandalf's staff breaking. I mean, anybody can get thrown from a horse, and what horse wouldn't jump at the sight of the fell beast. But Gandalf's staff was just sad. Seriously, a staff is like a wizard's best friend, he uses it to do a lot of stuff. Although, Gandalf does not do near as much with his staff in the movies as in the books, but I digress...

Another thing about that scene is that it doesn't seem like a very direct confrontation. The WK comes down, and we see him facing Gandalf. Then he holds up his sword, lets it flare, but doesn't use it. Gandalf just lays there dumbfounded, until his staff shattters in his hands. That's it. The conflict just doesn't seem very defined, like they could have been miles away and still done it.

[alatar]

Watching the confrontation between the WK and Gandalf really spoiled the movies for me. It seems that in PJ's version Gandalf's role is lessened when compared to the books, and this scene is the worst of it.

After watching the scene, I watched it again with PJ's commentary, hoping to get some insight regarding 'why'. Nothing. I'm very disappointed with ROTK:EE.

And does Gandalf have a staff when he boards the ship at the end?

Originally Posted by alatar

Watching the confrontation between the WK and Gandalf really spoiled the movies for me. It seems that in PJ's version Gandalf's role is lessened when compared to the books, and this scene is the worst of it.

After watching the scene, I watched it again with PJ's commentary, hoping to get some insight regarding 'why'. Nothing. I'm very disappointed with ROTK:EE.

And does Gandalf have a staff when he boards the ship at the end?

I think it is a really ruined part in this movie and that Gandalf The White is at least 4 times more powerful than the witch king. He the most powerful human in lord of the rings after sauron ( i think ) and with a lift of his staff should be able to chase the witch king and make him run for his life, as in the book the witch king himself feels overpowered and flees. It is terrible that they make him weak and pathetic like this.

Originally Posted by staff_and_sword

I think it is a really ruined part in this movie and that Gandalf The White is at least 4 times more powerful than the witch king. He the most powerful human in lord of the rings after sauron ( i think ) and with a lift of his staff should be able to chase the witch king and make him run for his life, as in the book the witch king himself feels overpowered and flees. It is terrible that they make him weak and pathetic like this.

Don't forget that in the first film & book, Gandalf the Grey appears anxious of an encounter with the Balrog of Morgoth, even afraid. But after a titanic battle he defeats it & his superiority is highlighted against all save Sauron (& perhaps Saruman at the time).

I believe that a similar thing was about to happen when the Witch King confronted Gandalf the White. The Witch King inspired anxiety into Gandalf, but ultimately Gandalf would have been victorious if the two fought in battle. (I don't think the Witch King would have defeated the Balrog - more likely he would flee from it at the death of the battle. We never actually see any proof of how powerful the Witch King was in the book or the film, but we did with Gandalf).

Maybe PJ thought GANDALF vs WK would take away the focus of the film away from what it really was about - not a duel between two powerful individuals, but a battle between Aragorn for the free people of ME & Sauron for Mordor.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Don't forget that in the first film & book, Gandalf the Grey appears anxious of an encounter with the Balrog of Morgoth, even afraid. But after a titanic battle he defeats it & his superiority is highlighted against all save Sauron (& perhaps Saruman at the time).

I believe that a similar thing was about to happen when the Witch King confronted Gandalf the White. The Witch King inspired anxiety into Gandalf, but ultimately Gandalf would have been victorious if the two fought in battle. (I don't think the Witch King would have defeated the Balrog - more likely he would flee from it at the death of the battle. We never actually see any proof of how powerful the Witch King was in the book or the film, but we did with Gandalf).

Maybe PJ thought GANDALF vs WK would take away the focus of the film away from what it really was about - not a duel between two powerful individuals, but a battle between Aragorn for the free people of ME & Sauron for Mordor.

More close view of Gandalf's might :-

Gandalf holds off all nine Nazgul at Weathertop (book)

Gandalf defeats the Balrog (film & book)

Gandalf breaks the staff of Saruman (film & book)


More closer view of the WK:-

Held of by Aragorn & gandalf at weather top (film &/or book).

Defeats nobody major at all in the entire book but is later able to break the staff of Gandalf the White?? (film)

Is defeated by a hobbit & a woman (albeit with luck).


The point is, lets not forget that the WK is made to look inferior as an opponent also!!

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Defeats nobody major at all in the entire book but is later able to break the staff of Gandalf the White?? (film)

Is defeated by a hobbit & a woman (albeit with luck).

The point is, lets not forget that the WK is made to look inferior as an opponent also!!

Oh dear, here we go again!!!!

In both Book and Film, the Witch King in his last form is far mightier and Superior to his 'former' self - Tolkien has mentioned this in his Letters, and Jackson mentions that they had to 'up' the power of the WK as they needed a 'baddie' to cocentrate on in this movie - either that or have Sauron appear at the Black Gate. Now THAT would have caused mass hysteria by a lot of Tolkien fans!

So therefore, Jackson was following Tolkien's lead in 'powering up' the WK.

I have explained here and in other threads, and I put it to you now that the Staff is a symbolic token that a Wizard carries, and at most a conduit of his power - Remember Gandalf broke Saurman's staff both in move and book with his Voice. Not a blast from his Staff. One of the only places in the book I can see Gandalf use his staff is to light a fire! (oh and to light the way in Moria!)

Merry and Eowyn. Luck???? No way! The Witch King was defeated by a blade of Weseternesse that was designed with possibly that exact purpose in mind, and wielded by the courageous hand of a halfling. Eowyn then gallantly killed the Witch King after the spell holding his sinews to his will were unknit by Merry.

But I do understand that the WK/Gandalf scene is different in that Gandalf's staff is broken, and thath he lies on the floor. But do we really know what would have happened if the two DID fight? Remember Gandalf was in a body that could be inflicted by wounds exactly as a normal man - he could die as easily as a man could. And (and I think I'm in the minority here) - from the very first time I read the book, I always wondered how much of a Bluff Gandalf's words to the WK were.............did he know himself whether he could defeat the WK or not?

But the end of this scene in both book and movie is exactly the same. Rohan have arrived in the nick of time to Save the Day. And Jackson ramps up the tension by having Gandalf on the floor to show the Movie world this.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Captain of Despair

I agree that Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking.

I agree In the books it said that Gandalf could even Take on the dark lord himself and Sauron is even MORE powerful than the witch king.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I agree In the books it said that Gandalf could even Take on the dark lord himself and Sauron is even MORE powerful than the witch king.

Hm, I am not sure as to what quote you are referring. Gandalf did say:

Originally Posted by The White Rider, TTT

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.
...
And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

Even the second quote doesn't give precedence to Gandalf. Not that it matters much in a movie discussion.