Celebrian's Misfortunes

[Boromir88]

Why must people try to look for sexual intentions in Tolkien's books? What I mean is, "Are Frodo and Sam gay?" "Did Arwen and Aragorn do it before the Council of Elrond?" "Oooh, did you see how Galadriel looked at Bilbo when they were parting for Valinor, do you think there was something between them? Or maybe Frodo?"

It's like since there is no mention of sexual activity people must go and force in possible instances when there is really nothing there.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Why must people try to look for sexual intentions in Tolkien's books? What I mean is, "Are Frodo and Sam gay?" "Did Arwen and Aragorn do it before the Council of Elrond?" "Oooh, did you see how Galadriel looked at Bilbo when they were parting for Valinor, do you think there was something between them? Or maybe Frodo?"

It's like since there is no mention of sexual activity people must go and force in possible instances when there is really nothing there.

Boromir, I highly doubt that my question on Celebrian's ordeal is of the same nature that you find offensive in those other ridiculous questions you stated.

[Encaitare]

So maybe she was, and maybe she wasn't. It certainly is more of a reason to fall into despair and want to leave Middle-earth forever, but then again, maybe to an elf, being attacked is enough. It's sort of like with Morgoth wanting to do something "terrible" to Luthien. That is all we're told, and it can be interpreted in various ways, as many things in Tolkien's work can be.

Whatever the case, nothing can come of arguing one side or the other. It's like those darned Balrog wings...

[Nukapei]

Your right, Boro, your question is entirely different than people making up sexual relationships (sometimes homosexual ones) between LotR characters. In fact, I've often wondered the same thing -- it Celebrian was raped, I mean. However, I doubt it. Something that awful was sure to be mentioned, or at least hinted at, by Tolkien. And, anyway, orcs don't really seem to have the same sexual urges humans have, especially humans of our culture. We are a very sex-orienated people, after all -- all one needs to do to see that is turn on the tv.

[Bêthberry]

Well I suppose that before we could settle the question of did they or didn't they, we would have to come to terms with the nature of orcish reproduction, which I believe is just slightly less problematic than balrog wings or Tom Bombadil.

[the phantom]

In a thread I started about the Morgoth/Luthien incident I brought up rape. Then I read some HoME (X, Laws and Customs...) and found this-

there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force... one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos

If the orcs had attempted to rape Celebrian, it seems she would have "died". So, since she was rescued alive I would assume she was not raped.

However, it's very likely she was tickled mercilessly- a preferred method of torment amongst all who learned under Melkor's tutelage.

[Mister Underhill]

That's a great find, phantom -- nice to see some of that ol' time HoME being slung. However, I'm compelled to point out that the passage you cite was actually revised out of a later version of the essay and changed to "...seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them."

Unfortunately, I think this change paves the way for some rather dark interpretations of Celebrian's "misfortunes" (now there's a euphemism if I've ever heard one). Knowing orcs, I think we may suppose that if they could, they did.

[narfforc]

She was in fact raped, for I was the offspring of that unholy union. When I was born they called me Narfforc, because I was one. Sorry to end the speculation this way.

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by the phantom

there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force... one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos

A detail in this quote attracted my attention. Tolkien refers only to Elves, who takes other Elves by force. He didn't mention any kind of other races in his phrases. Not in this one, not in the other ones in manuscript B.
He didn't mention, how these Elves rejected bodily life, nor when they reject.

I have two intentions concerning the quote:

1. Tolkien didn't mean "raped", but he meant rather, that an Elf takes another Elf's wife and forces her to live with him and other marital responsibilities.
Love under Elves has a special meaning in Middle-earth. It is something very binding. The bind lasts even after one part went to Mandos and the other part could not marry another Elf without consent of the other part in Mandos, that he/she rests in the Halls in Mandos until the end (Finwe and Miriel).
Regarding this, we can assume, that it must be very hard to en Elf being forced to change the partner. It must be a very huge torment to live with another Elf and not to see his/her "naturally given" partner. These elves passes to Mandos.
But this means not that being raped by orcs is no reason to leave Middle-earth.

2. (assuming, that Tolkien meant "raped")
I could be, that Orcs are not included in that theory, but only Elves. Being raped by orcs must not mean, that they rejects life and pass to Mandos. It is more a kind of physical torture. Being raped by Elves, by someone of their own people, could be a huge physical and psychological wound, that they can't suffer this and pass to Mandos.

I tend towards the first intention and that Celebrian was raped by orcs. Especially plausible is for me the reasoning of SpM, that Elrond healed the wounds, but Celebrian passed in spite of the healing, because she lost her delight.