Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance.

Besides which, wasn't Rath Dinen on one of the lower levels of the City? I could be totally wrong (I haven't got a book in front of me to confirm with), but wasn't it supposed to be the lowest or second lowest level? I KNOW it was, as you already mentioned, supposed to be beside the mountains and not the Pelennor.

[Elianna]

Rath Dinen runs on behind the Citadel, closer to the mountain than the Citadal.

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed... so much so that if I were a horse, there would be a stewards enquiry.....

[Lalwendë]

It might depend upon whether he was combusting himself, rather than just his robes burning. If so he could stay alight for quite some time. Though he wouldn't be running anywhere, so that renders the argument incorrect. *scratches chin* Maybe there was another ring bestowing powers of invisibility and a small platoon of leprechauns were carrying him thither? Or perhaps one of the Fell Beasts picked him up and carried him there - that could be true because it was hopping from foot to foot when the Witch King confronted Gandalf, as though it had burned its toes.

By the same token - why do they have that big open gap in the walls of the top level of Minas Tirith? It serves no purpose apart from to make it easier for Denethor to do his diving act. It would have been much better if he'd actually tripped over a little low wall in his flammable frenzy. Even better if he'd slipped on a banana skin dropped by Pippin. Well, it was a comedy moment as it was, so why didn't they add a bit more humour?

[Nukapei]

Yeah, that part was a little unrealistic. The book version was much better, and more believable -- in it, he just burned.

[Neurion]

Here's a good one: Boromir takes three arrows, shot from a longbow by Lurtz, a huge Uruk, at about a hundred yards, while wearing (presumably) only a mail-shirt for protection, and does not even fall over for a couple of minutes, yet in RotK, the fully-armored sentry at Osgilliath is hit by one arrow, from by the shortbow of a little runt of an orc at something like three hundred yards, at around a 45 degree angle, and it not only goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate but knocks him right off his feet. Bad. Really bad.

[Lalwendë]

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt:

The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn had Anduril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a ranger of the wilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Anduril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn.

Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens

But then I often find when I'm watching the films that I see incidents where a man ought to have died but did not, or vice versa, in battle. Surely the fight arrangers are just as pedantic as anyone in knowing about such things, so it does surprise me a little.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Oh, goody! A thread on physics in Middle Earth! Just for jollies, I thought I'd add a link or two for those of you (like me) who have thought about such things before and sought out those more expert than ourselves (at least more expert than me!). TOR.net has a section entitled "Green Books," which contains an ongoing series called "The Science of Middle Earth," which is also being released as a book on Amazon.com here: The Science of Middle Earth
Articles on TOR.net include:
Introduction
What do your Elf-eyes see?
Notion Club Papers
Mithril
Fëanor's Laboratory
Yet Another Take on Balrog Wings
How Tall IS a Mallorn Tree?
My favorite bit in these articles must be the postulation that the palantiri are made of an alternating layered structure of lithium niobate and beta carbon nitride in order to lend it holographic properties and adequate hardness. What fun!

As for the stairs up to the top of Orthanc, wouldn't a well hidden trap door be enough; after all, Dwarf doors can be made invisible, so why not Numenorean doors?
As for Gimli-throwing, I'd think he would go pretty far, as he is short AND heavy, thus being built more like a cannonball than any of the other members of the Fellowship. I guess Aragorn would just have to give him a good initial trajectory and then the physics of ballistic motion would take over. (I may have enjoyed physics, but I can't remember the equation anymore!)

Plus, if we postulate that Legolas' arrow could have reached the level of the top of Orthanc, would it come down straight? If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't a long weighted object turn end over end as it traveled through the air? This, of course, doesn't rule out it having sufficient gravitational impetus to make disposition of Grima, but it does seem unlikely to me. However, a bullet fired in the air could easily accomplish this task and has (I read a news story of an unfortunate man in my area who fired a pistol in the air and was struck by his own bullet coming back down. What bad luck!) All that aside, I think Orli-Legolas should have kept his arrow in the quiver and not engaged in such reprehensible, if picturesque, behavior anyway!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt.

In the books it was said that the only visible armour Boromir had was a steel collar, but I refer to the films.

BTW, anyone else notice that in the films the armoured characters seem to do significantly worse than the unarmoured ones?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed...

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

A lot less painfull than being gibbeted, boiled, broken on the wheel or hung drawn and quartered IMHO.

[Lathriel]

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)

Anyway magic is probably some differnt kind of physics with different rules (Obviously)

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lathriel

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)

Speaking in terms of sheer numbers killed, one would think it safe to say our predecessors were somewhat more civilized than their 20th century descendants.

[Faramir]

u guys its fantasy anything can happen...aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?
(im not trying to be rude)

[Nukapei]

Yeah, but fantasy's just another reality. Elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. don't exist, but if they did than LotR would be totally possible. At least, that's the idea! It's fun to post things here that we think go against that idea, then have others either add to it or dispute it.

[Encaitare]

aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?

Yes.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

You've got a much higher chance of surviving a fall if a large object falls first and breaks the surface tension on the water before you hit it. It's roughly the same principle as the prow of a boat... only going down and not forward.

Hmm... I wonder what Gandalf could have thrown off the bridge that would hit the water first?

*envisions Istar using large firey (wingless) shield*

Sophia

[Nukapei]

lol! Good point!

[Lathriel]

About Legolas walking on the snow, it even says in the books that he can do that. It's an elvish thing.

Here is another thing. the lighting of the beacons. Do those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts? Is it a family tradition to keep the holy matches dry in case the beacons need to be lit?
Maybe its tradition to mourn at the guy's funeral not only because he is dead but also because he didn't get a chance to light the beacons!

On the side of mount Doom, where were the gasmasks that Frodo and sam needed.
However when my dad talks about this I always tell him A. It's a movie. B. It's middle-earth

[Assasin]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

[Essex]

Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go.

only until you reach Terminal Velocity. (hey, that sounds like a great name for a film, doesn't it?)

PS, regarding gravity (which seems to be the main problem on this thread),

And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth? (yes, before you say it, I've heard it's meant to be Earth 10,000 years or so ago......) In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

PPS re the beacons

those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts?

This actually IS based on fact.

[Assasin]

Yes, Lalwende, that's exactly what I mean. Fantasy magic is really hard to understand.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Essex

In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

Because as long as Middle-Earth has about the same radius as present Earth does and about the same mass, it would have the same gravitational acceleration. I doubt these things have changed about our Earth even in 10,000 yrs.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

[AragornII]

Another thing about the Balrog and Gandalf. I have a book called The Complete Tolkien Companion, and it says that Balrogs were "spirits of fire" and that they of great size, "enshrouded in flame". So my question is how does Gandalf land on the Balrog if the Balrog is made of fire. Wouldn't he just burn up?
Also, I'm not too knowledgeable in physics, but would the sword really make a humming noise as it fell?

[Encaitare]

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth?

I meant merely that Middle-earth has gravity.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

I share in your plight, Elianna. Oh well.