Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Formendacil]

Does it matter?

Quite frankly, that is my greatest question concerning the Balrog wings debate.

Thinking more seriously on it, I have to say that I like the idea of winged Balrogs that are unable to fly. Kind of like....

The DODO.

I think Balrogs with wings look infinitely cooler, but I have to ask why Morgoth would give them wings if they can't fly. On the other hand, what if they CAN fly? How long do you seriously think they would have tolerated Thorondor and his eagles nesting on Thangorodrim? From what I know of Morgoth (and the Balrogs), I think that not-very-long is a reasonable assumption.

So, my opinion is that Balrogs cannot fly. Hence, wings would be redundant. If wings are redundant, why would Balrogs have them? If there is no reason for Balrogs to have them, it follows that they would most likely not have.

Okay, so that's my opinion on the subject: Balrogs did not have wings.

Do I think it matters: no!

Is there a way to conclusively prove it one way or another? Not unless Tolkien left a secret manuscript relating to Balrogs and their physical appearance, which is both improbably and laughable. Call me a cynic, if you like, but I don't think this debate will ever be settled, even by a vote. (Unless, of course, the majority of people around here are movie-fans, in which case they would likely overbalance the scales, and cover all the lands in a second darkness.... Oh wait, I'm getting carried away...)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thanks for that other thread Underhill. It was, um, interesting. . .

(Can someone please pass me another aspirin?)

Thanks, as well, to the [B]Wight /B] for not closing this thread the instant it opened. He was even the first to vote!

It's interesting to see who is voting which way, as well. So far, some of the really 'heavy hitters' have gone with the "no" side. I am delighted to see, however, that SaucepanMan has agreed with me on the "yes" side. Now if we can convince davem to weigh in on the topic, and if he votes "yes" as well, then we will have finally found something upon which SpM, davem and I all agree. Should such a thing occur, I wonder if the Downs would implode or something? If it does happen, I may have to delete the thread instantly for fear that Bethberry might also vote yes, in which case I am sure the repurcussions would be much further reaching than the Downs.

But to address your excellent question Formendacil: I really don't know. Before I came to the Downs, I did not even realise that there was a debate about the wings. I was blithely and rather naively sure that they did have wings and was stunned to see such heated opinions on the matter. At first I thought the whole fight was a bit silly, but as I followed its contours I realised that the discussion has a lot to offer: I learned all kinds of very interesting things about the First Age, about the battles in which Balrogs featured, about the nature of Balrogs as created/evil beings. . .in short, while the answer to the question might be unattainable, the process of discussing it is wonderfully interesting and productive.

[Neithan]

but I have to ask why Morgoth would give them wings if they can't fly.

Actually Morgoth could not have given Balrogs wings because, as Maiar, they chose their own shapes. The question then becomes, why would they give themselves worthless wings when they could have, just as easily, had wings that worked?

I still hold to the theory that as Maiar, they can change their form and thus have wings if they wish

Actually the Balrogs had become incarnate in their forms and could no longer change them (if they could still change their forms then the two who met their end by falling of of cliffs would have done so to escape their fate).

That's it for me until I have a chance to look through the links provided.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've read past Balrog wing discussions with aloof amusement and never really taken a stand on the issue. It's always seemed to be the Middle-earth equivalent to the theological debate on how many angels could dance on a pinhead. (Yes, that was a matter of serious discussion; I remember hearing about that in church history, though I no longer remember the details.) However, considering the textual sources and the fact that not all appendices given to creatures in nature are functional, I will go out on a "limb" (pun intentional) and say that I too am of the opinion that Balrogs did have wings, though they were not able to fly.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

ha HA ha ha haaaaaaa. . .

I knew that if I tried long enough and hard enough I could drag you Esty into the dark abyss from which none have ever escaped.

Now, dare you face the chilling terror of the orc-reproduction debate? Or, scarier still (if such a thing is possible) the ears of Elves?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I already voted there, Fordim, but you can't tell what!

[obloquy]

Actually Morgoth could not have given Balrogs wings because, as Maiar, they chose their own shapes. The question then becomes, why would they give themselves worthless wings when they could have, just as easily, had wings that worked?

There's no reason to believe that Morgoth couldn't have given them their forms. That Maiar created forms for themselves was not an axan, just generally the way it happened. If Balrogs were anything like the John Howe conception, I think it is pretty unlikely that they made themselves look so horrible. After all, they weren't created evil, and originally loved the light. Also, if there was one specific Balrog shape, I think it is more likely that Morgoth fashioned the bodies for them.

The books speak of dark "gifts" that Melkor gave to those who followed him, and I believe that they were gifts of those things that were meant for Incarnates, such as food and sex. It jives with the biblical account of the origin of demons--there are quite a few biblical models for Tolkien's writing. Obviously, this rebellion doesn't immediately make them into huge ghastly beasts. If they chose their own forms in which to partake of these gifts, I do not doubt that they would have been impressive and even beautiful. It is only in time, having nurtured evil thoughts and perpetrated evil deeds, and when their forms began to become more than mere raiment, that Maiar lost their ability to appear fair. I don't think this loss would have resulted in the giant, horned, winged monsters that Howe depicts, as glorious as Howe's paintings are. Instead I always imagined Balrogs as tall, impressively built humanoids with an aura of darkness that reflected the corruption of their powerful fea inside. The bit in FotR when Gandalf is on one side of the door and the Balrog is on the other is giving me chills right now as I remember it.

Anyway, I think that it suited Melkor's purposes to have his servants incarnate, and he intentionally made them so. Whether this included creating their forms for them or not, one can't say for sure. But it was possible.

I also think it's silly to think they would've given themselves functionless wings, Esty. :P

[drigel]

Spirit of Fire
Many forms of fire

Fire needs fuel
There is fuel below me but not above

Shadowy wings
Shadows can be used for many purposes
Aerodynamic laws not being on of these

Balrogs had shadowy wings but they were not used for flight

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I also think it's silly to think they would've given themselves functionless wings, Esty. :P

I did not claim that they chose that form themselves, oblo. Perhaps Morgoth, as their lord and master, wanted to keep them frustrated by giving them wings and the wish to fly, but not the capability!

[obloquy]

Tushie!!!