Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[Neithan]

What I'm saying is that there indeed was a link with Thingol that made her incarnate herself and be with him in ME.

Oh, I apologize for misrepresenting your position.

I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

Are you implying that Sauron was a mere spirit and not incarnate during his time in Númenórë?

No indeed, that would be a rediculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

[drigel]

Nethian/Maedros
I am following you both
Melian giving birth never dawned on me as having an effect on her hroa. Of course that would bind her. Dunno if its equivelent to S's ring. Interesting!

Perhaps Sauron needed to put an immense amount of power into the creation of the One Ring in order to overcome the power of the Elven rings; an amount of power sufficient to make it so that the destruction of the One Ring would be his own downfall?

Lalwende -I concur - (in previous post) I referenced this ealier. For Sauron to have something (elves) he despises so much and intended to control - to be ultimately his undoing by matching, or surpassing, the potency of the wielders.... sweet irony

Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

It seems to me congruous that the palantiri utilized the attributes that are presented in Ósanwe-kenta

Lalwende: your threads are great! keep it up

[Neithan]

Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each?

I have actually not read Osanwe-Kenta so my insight concerning this thread is limited, however I think I can add something here. There is also the possibility that their unusally long life had something to do with their body being harmed. But more importantly I think that it was the connection beween body and spirit that did it. Therefore as their minds were corrupted so were their bodies. This explains several things. There is the quote from Gandalf saying that Bilbo's pity helped him resist fading, just after that Gandalf says that the Ring will be "slow to evil" if Frodo keeps it with the intention of keeping it hidden. Also here is a quote about the Ringwraiths from the Sil,

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning they fell ...

So you see their intentions have much to do with how long it takes, but eventually their minds (and spirits) are corrupted, and their bodies along with them.

[Maédhros]

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust.

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

I would say that the inverse is correct. While Bilbo and Frodo had the Ring, their body endured more that it's natural span, notice that Bilbo looked very similiar from his adventures in The Hobbit and he was about 111 years old.
I have explained this in another thread. The Ring puts the hröa and fëar against each other. While a mortal fëar after sometime would want to leave the world and it's hröa in time would decay, the ring makes the hröa endure more that it is meant to do, this puts great anguish against the being who has the Ring.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.

No indeed, that would be a ridiculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

Maybe the Ring should be looked at from another angle. Perhaps to a certain extent, when Sauron created the One Ring, he not only infused a great deal of his power into it, but also his connection to a "physical form"?

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

Also, another thought to do with that: the hröa is not just the physical body, but also, in a sort of complicated way that I can't readily find a quote to, includes the 'mind' and thoughts of the person. So, if the Ring is a part of Sauron's hröa, then it would follow that it has a part in his thoughts and mind, hence the "personification" of the Ring, its seeming consciousness and malevolent will.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into an aberrant thought on my part, but it seems almost plausible...

[Maédhros]

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

I have to disagree with this. If what you say is true, then Sauron would always survive if his Ring did, but that is not the case.
From the Letters of JRRT: 246

Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[Neithan]

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

I had a similar thought. I think that in order to use the Rings they had to "open their minds to them" that is, they had to use this "mind power" to use the Rings and so the Rings became tied to that power. And so through the One Ring Sauron could get around their "unwill".
This raises the question, shouldn't Gandalf and others be able to shut their minds to the temptation of the One Ring?

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.