Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth

[Maédhros]

RD-SL-20

We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons:

1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle.

2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely.

I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine.

But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped.

I think that just to be safe, it would be better to drop the line. It is funny in a way, Aiwendil wants to keep it and Findegil wants to drop it. It is usually the other way around.

I am aware of the problem of internal statment made on an external fact. Therefore my suggestion in the last post. But as said there already, in view of an appendix talking about the external problems we had with the §, I can live with loosing the "somehow".

It seems that in his last post Findegil dropped the "tale" issue. I think that Aiwendil is right in that.

RD-EX-51

I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return".

To be honest, I don't see hte awkwardness of it, but in matters of taste and grammar I defer to Aiwendil.

RD-EX-63

If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work:

Quote:
RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise[,] {...} strengthened by the clash of steel.

I think that "enforced" is not the right word, but I think this may be what you had in mind.

Again I agree.

The arrgument against the use of the Mîm's death as a further grievence to the dwarves was the passage "The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, ..." But what bothers me now is this passage "But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, ..." The grievance refered to is clearly that between the Great Dwarves and the Sindar and not that of the Petty-Dwarves against the Sindar. Thus what else can be meant by this passage other than that the death of Mîm brought back that grievance only laid at rest and never really healed and thus added to the wrath of the Dwarves of Nogrod against Thingol?

Where exactly did that discussion took place? I do not seem to find it?

[Findegil]

FD-SL-19:
I treid to reread that discussion myself after I did the post, but could find not more in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** than Aiwendils remark in post #54

Would the news of Mim's death really have point for the Dwarves of Nogrod, considering the later conception of the Petty Dwarves?

and my replay in post #56

About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it.

There after the discussion died down on that point, and when I prepared the text of the expanded version I only scaned through the thread to find the last remark about every point to become that text in agrement with what we discussed. What I wrote in post #17 of this thread was then based on my blured memory.
Thus the discussion is a bit more open than I thought: Aiwendil put in some doubts, that I now try to dispel. If I succed with that I would bring in the following changes:

§31 (§16) Yet after long pondering he saw not how he might achieve his purpose save by force, and there was little hope therein, both by reason of the great strength of numbers of the Elves of {Artanor}[Doriath] in those days, and of the woven magic of {Gwenniel}[Melian] that guarded all those regions, so that men of hostile heart were lost and came not to those woods; nor indeed could any such come thither RD-SL-20{ unaided by treachery from within}.

§32 (§16.5) RD-SL-19<TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs}[Belegost], {a kindred}[an other realm] of the Dwarves{ that dwelt in other realms}. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm the fatherless at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund's}[Glaurung’s] gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5<Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}} RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. Secretly he let send {to the Indrafangs}[the messengers back] RD-SL-18 asking<Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them}him, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they} RD-EX-55 . <editorial addition But the Dwarves of Nogrod>{ prepare}prepared their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs.}>

Do I miss some point or is this new discussion of RD-SL-19 the last open point in this section?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I'm ok with the new additions but I would use instead:

§32 (§16.5) RD-SL-19<TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred realm of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms} [Belegost]. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm the fatherless at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund's}[Glaurung’s] gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5<Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>

To me this sounds better, but I wonder what Aiwendil would say about it. I think that messengers from Belegost imply that they were dwarves from there.
I liked the addition from Unfinished Tales.

Do I miss some point or is this new discussion of RD-SL-19 the last open point in this section?

I think that is it.

[Aiwendil]

RD-SL-20: If there is any doubt, then you are right, it's safer to drop it.

RD-SL-19: I think that Findegil is right; my reservation about the news of Mim's death was an overreaction.

[Findegil]

Then this section is done and we can start with last section of chapter.
I will start that with some further changes that came lately to my attention.

Respectfully
Findegil

[emrys]

I know that the discussion about this topic finished a long time ago, but I've started to post here because I am myself trying to reconstruct the structure of a "new" fall of Doriath.

So far I've managed to collect the narrative from the old tale and I'm processing it with the following operations:

- Update of Names
- Division in Chapters
- Deletion of Major Inconsistencies
- Integration with some parts of the Q30

I would be very glad to see your complete version before trying to post some comments on that topic.

If that cannot be done...I'll try to discuss them without comparing our versions (if that doesn't represent a problem for you)

Thanks,

Emrys

[Findegil]

Hi Emrys,

have you read your Private Message? If not please do so. Seeing your interest my offer does include FoD from now on.

We are of course interested to compare your ideas with our work and it would be much easier for us if you could make the comparision.

Respectfully
Findegil