Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Rilwen Gamgee]

I agree with Lindolirian's intimidation theory. The form of Balrogs' wings, as I invisioned them, were shadowy, but with form. Not possessing form enough to actually fly, but enough to frighten its...victim(s).

As many members and a few non-members repeated numerous times, somewhere in the FotR, Tolkien mentions shadows emerging from the Balrog like wings.

Please, whatever anyone wishes to think is great; I'm a believer in forming one's own visuals of characters, but I intend to stick fast to my imagination.

[the phantom]

You all seem to forget that Tolkien had an opinion about this.

From HoME XXVIII, part 3, subsection 2, draft C, entitled "questions I should've answered"-

I think that Balrogs could've had wings if they chose but didn't have wings so they couldn't fly but if they did they still couldn't fly unless they wanted to fly in which case they could but only if they had had wings but they didn't have wings since they couldn't fly.

I think that answers the question.

I'm not sure what the question is, though.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

So far, some of the really 'heavy hitters' have gone with the "no" side. I am delighted to see, however, that SaucepanMan has agreed with me on the "yes" side. Now if we can convince davem to weigh in on the topic, and if he votes "yes" as well, then we will have finally found something upon which [B]SpM, davem and I all agree.

Sorry, but I can't join my esteemed colleagues. I don't recall any mention of Balrog's wings in The Sil, of Balrog's flying (other than 'metaphorically' to Morgoth's aid). I do think they may have had pointy ears, though.

(If someone has already done that joke I'm sorry.....)

I think that Balrogs may or may not have had wings. They were still Ainur after all, and could change thier forms at will. In the Fellowship of the Ring, we are told that the shadow about the Balrog was LIKE wings. Later the wings are refered to as if they actually exist. This has been debated constantly among Pro wingers and Anti wingers. Keep in mind though, we are never told the nature of the Ainur's shape shifting. It may be that the Balrog of Moria didn't have wings at first, but on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, it may have formed the shadow about it into wing like shapes, and later the shadow solidified into actual wings. So the Balrog basically adds wings to it's form. My theory is based on my belief that the Balrogs retained their ability to change shape, though. If someone can prove that they lost this ability, my point is voided.

As for whether or not they fly, I have no clue. Tolkien makes a point to say that Morgoth never learned the secret of flight, but remember in the story of Beren and Luthien, Sauron took a winged form and flew away. Not to mention Morgoth also managed to breed winged dragons too. However, being that Balrogs are Maiar, if they could fly, they certainly wouldn't need wings to do it. God I have no life.

[Son of Númenor]

I have yet to see a convincing argument against Underhill's thesis. It seems logical that if members of the Fellowship, who have just seen a Balrog up close and personal, mistake a flying creature for a Balrog, Balrogs must a) have wings and b) be capable of flight.

[Sharkû]

But doesn't this remind you of a badly drawn elephant?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

I have yet to see a convincing argument against Underhill's thesis. It seems logical that if members of the Fellowship, who have just seen a Balrog up close and personal, mistake a flying creature for a Balrog, Balrogs must a) have wings and b) be capable of flight.

Whoa!!

Mister Underhill rules. I'm off to cast my vote. Good thing I waited.

[Fingolfin II]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

It seems logical that if members of the Fellowship, who have just seen a Balrog up close and personal, mistake a flying creature for a Balrog, Balrogs must a) have wings and b) be capable of flight.

Not necessarily. To the Fellowship (with, perhaps, the exception of Legolas), the Fell Beast that the Nazgul was riding appeared to just be a dark shadow from afar.

'Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night.

The Balrog was described as a creature of fire and shadow. Here, the only indication is that the creature in this excerpt is one of shadow (meaning it's very dark).

If, as you suggest, Son of Numenor, that Balrogs have wings and are capable of flight, then surely Gothmog and the Balrogs that Gandalf and Glorfindel fought would have flown to safety instead of plunging into deep water in one case, and falling to their ruin in the other two?

There are several arguments avalaible on this contentious issue, which I won't reiterate, but I'm certainly an ardent anti-winger .

[Neithan]

Well I still haven't had time to look through all of the links provided but I feel the need to add a couple of comments.

It seems logical that if members of the Fellowship, who have just seen a Balrog up close and personal, mistake a flying creature for a Balrog, Balrogs must a) have wings and b) be capable of flight.

Wait a minute, it's not as simple as that. Gimli didn't mistake it for a Balrog, he said that it reminded him of the shadow of the Balrog.

I think that Balrogs could've had wings if they chose but didn't have wings so they couldn't fly but if they did they still couldn't fly unless they wanted to fly in which case they could but only if they had had wings but they didn't have wings since they couldn't fly.

An interesting quote! This is even more confusing than Bilbo's farewell speech (intentionaly I am sure), but it does seem to say that they didn't have wings. The fact that he says that they could have had wings if they wanted does prove that they weren't given bodies by Morgoth though.

My theory is based on my belief that the Balrogs retained their ability to change shape, though. If someone can prove that they lost this ability, my point is voided.

Well there is quite a bit of evidence that they had lost this ability. For one, they had been in that form for a very long time. Also, as I said before if they still had this ability they could not have died by falling off of a cliff. For more information on the subject try here
Edit: Oops, the last post was finished as I was making mine which is why I say some of the same things.

[Evisse the Blue]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You all seem to forget that Tolkien had an opinion about this.

From HoME XXVIII, part 3, subsection 2, draft C, entitled "questions I should've answered"-

So then it's settled. They didn't.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Before I came to the Downs, I did not even realise that there was a debate about the wings. I was blithely and rather naively sure that they did have wings and was stunned to see such heated opinions on the matter.

This sums up entirely my own reaction to the issue. I recall that one of the things that I found most fascinating when I first came to the site (the main site that is - the discussion forum came later) was the fact that there were serious, intelligent and detailed articles concerning such matters. Not just whether Balrogs had wings, but also a couple of wonderful articles (by the esteemed Messrs Wight and Underhill) on the question of whether Olog-Hai were immune to the petrifying effects of sunlight. It had never really occurred to me to ponder such questions before.

By the time I came to the discussion forum, the issue had already been comprehensively argued with persuasive arguments both ways. So, although I am familiar with the arguments, I have never felt it necessary to weigh in with my opinions on the matter.

If I had to give a logical answer, I would say that Balrogs could not have had wings. It simply does not square with them being unable to fly when pitching down the various chasms that members of their order have fallen down. And I cannot see the point of them having flightless wings, especially in a world which does not presuppose evolution. And there are a variety of other ways in which they could have made their chosen forms intimidating.

But, as with many such questions, my ultimate reaction is not a logical one. Unless the issue is definitively proved one way or the other (and this one most certainly is not), I go with the conception that I formed when I first read the book. And, although it may well be a result of misinterpreting the "wings like shadows" reference, the Balrog of Moria most definately had wings when I first read the book. So, there we have it. Balrogs have wings.