Elves and Ringwraiths

[Neithan]

BUT- with the prophecy and a WOMAN killing the witch king, doesn't it seem that women, or at least Eowyn were greater than a man?

Not really, as pointed out earlier there definitely were female characters that were greater than most males; Galadriel, Luthien, and so on. But Eowyn was not that impressive, in fact she was quite weak. I think that Tolkien was making several different points by having the Witch King die in this manner.

First, that the weak can sometimes make the biggest difference.

Second, that no matter how great you are, you can not escape your fate.

Third, that you should not base decisions on incomplete information. Hearing the prophesy, everyone assumed that the Witch King would be killed by a great Elf Lord or by Gandalf, and so he let his gaurd down when fighting these "lesser beings" and was killed by a women and a hobbit.

All of these lessons can be found elsewhere in Tolkiens stories. The first is the main idea behind The Lord of the Rings. The second can be found when Eru tells Melkor that even Melkor's secret thoughts have their source in him. The third is found in the Mirror of Galadriel and the Palantiri.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

The power thing is a difficult issue, as this 'power' is more a negative thing than a positive one. It is a 'power' to negate, consume & destroy, not to create & build.

This "negative" power was the reward of the Nazgul for their gullibility ( ). Their greatest weapon was fear, and their purpose is to kill and destroy as Sauron commands, which is always tied up with their mission of retrieving the Ring.

The Elves - Elrond and Galadriel, specifically - were, on the other hand, given the power to restore and rebuild through the Elven Rings.

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

As for physical strength, which seems to be the main idea in this thread, some are right in saying that Elves can stand up against the Nazgul. They can overcome fear, and strength in battle to reckon with. But if ever they were matched up against the Ringwraiths, I doubt they would be able to wipe them off the face of the earth. Their existence is tied with Sauron's and only through his defeat can they also be defeated. With exception to the Witch-King. We all know what happened to him.

[Neithan]

In this viewpoint, there is no sense comparing Elves and Ringwraiths. They are given entirely different powers. These we cannot compare.

True. In fact, I would say they are opposites. Because of this it is hard to say who would win a fight, it depends on many factors, including the time of day (Ringwraiths are strongest at night, weakest at noon).

[Gurthang]

Maybe Tolkien was trying to make a point with these opposite powers: that the power to build up is greater than the power to destroy.

Look at the rings themselves. If you say they were completely opposite, then they should counter-balance each other. The Elven Rings are three, but the Nazgul's are obviously nine. This would mean that Sauron had to make three 'negative' rings to each one of the more powerful elven rings.

This could also elude to the power of good being a greater force than the power of evil, even though evil seems to way outnumber the good. As in the case of Mordor vs. Gondor/Rohan.

[Neithan]

This would mean that Sauron had to make three 'negative' rings to each one of the more powerful elven rings.

There are no completely "negative" Rings. All were made by the Elven smiths (most with Sauron's help). But in beginning none were evil. The Three had a strong tendancy to good because Sauron never touched them. The Nine (and the Seven) had a tendancy towards evil since Sauron had gained control over them, the Dwarves proved harder to ensnare though.

This could also elude to the power of good being a greater force than the power of evil, even though evil seems to way outnumber the good. As in the case of Mordor vs. Gondor/Rohan.

Yeah, good point.

[Gurthang]

There are no completely "negative" Rings.

True, I was speaking in the sense that they were more geared for destruction after the nine attained them.

All were made by the Elven smiths (most with Sauron's help).

Oh yes, my mistake. Thanks for correcting my error, Neithan. But there was one ring that was pretty much negative: The One Ring.

[Neithan]

But there was one ring that was pretty much negative: The One Ring.

My bad, so one completely negative ring then.