The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2005, 07:33 AM   #1
Lalwendė
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendė's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendė is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendė is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
We have talked in several threads about how modern fiction focuses on the interior of the character rather than the story itself. We are led inside the characters' heads to understand the individual's conflicting desires and psychological motives.
I think that sometimes it is a bit of a myth that all modern fiction focusses on the psychological motives of characters. What in reality tends to happen is that it focusses on the psychological motives of one or maybe two main characters, the protagonists. And in LotR it would be difficult to identify a definite protagonist. If we had to choose, then it might well be Frodo as the tale is at its heart the story of his journey to Mordor and his mission. When we do see interior insights then these do tend to be of Frodo. We see his dreams quite regularly, and what could be more personal than that?

LotR has a whole multitude of characters, so we do not need to see their interior thoughts as much as we would if it was a novel focussing on only a handful of characters; there is much opportunity to demonstrate motives and characteristics through dialogue and reactions of the many other characters. If it were just about Frodo, or even just about the Fellowship then we would need to have more interior thoughts written about as there would be less chance to have these represented by the multitudes of other people.

It is also a tale of action and movement, in contrast to what might be the polar opposite, Virginia Woolf, who writes of personal thoughts, feelings and reactions. LotR is in effect a pro-active work, while Woolf's work is reactive.

As for visible souls - I think every character in literature is in some way a 'visible soul'. We see more of literary characters than we could ever hope to see of our fellow human beings. But what intrigues me is the question of whether these souls are really aspects of the writer's soul becoming manifest on the page?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendė is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 11:53 AM   #2
Encaitare
Bittersweet Symphony
 
Encaitare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
Encaitare is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Of logotherapy and literature...

I was terribly bored the other day, and discovered on the shelf in my basement a curious-looking book, entitled Man's Seach for Meaning by one Viktor E. Frankl. Being of a philosophical mind when the notion strikes me, I picked it up and read it through until I finished at 1 AM (much to my chagrin when I had to get up for school several hours later!). Yet in the morning I started thinking about what I had read, and surprisingly got some coherent thought out of my early-morning musings.

The author of the book was a psychologist who was put in a concentration camp during WWII. The first half of the book outlines his experiences and impressions, as well as notes of his feelings and the behavior of those around him. Through these experiences, he developed what he calls "logotherapy," and explains as pychological therapy by finding meaning in life and actions.

Most of the book was pretty interesting, but otherwise irrelevant to LotR. One section stood out to me, though, towards the end when I was getting bleary-eyed but determined to finish. Frankl says that oftentimes, people apply stereotypes to others, applying the term "pan-determinism" to this idea that people will always react in a given way due to their conditioning, personalities, or previous actions. He denounces this, saying:

Quote:
Man does not simply exist, but always decides what his existence will be, what he will become in the next moment. By the same token, every human being has the freedom to change at any instant. ... One of the main features of human existence in the capacity to rise above such conditions and transcend them.
As recently discussed, we are not given the ability to see into the characters of LotR, yet we feel as though we have known them forever by the time the story is over. We can be almost positive about what many of the characters will do in a given circumstance, perhaps with the exception of Gollum. Gollum, I think, is the best example of Frankl's view; he has the ability to change or repent, and very nearly does once. However, most of the characters go through changes which are not complete turnarounds for them -- they grow rather than be altered.

Frankl goes on to cite an example of a doctor who worked fanatically for the Nazis, but later in life was reported to be "the best comrade you can image," who "lived up to the highest conceivable moral standard." Does this sort of thing happen all the time? Probably not, nor does it really occur in LotR. The characters are the visible souls, or perhaps embodiments of virtues: Sam, for example, is practically the embodiment of loyalty.

Child wrote:

Quote:
And then there is that intriguing question that Lewis himself raises at the end of his quote: "And Man as a whole, Man pitted against the Universe, have we seen him at all till we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?" Is this true, and is this why so many folk are endlessly drawn back into the story? Can we even understand ourselves as individuals unless we too regard ourselves as heroes in a fairy tale?
Again I will draw from another of Frankl's ideas: that suffering can be noble and made less miserable if one has something for which he is truly willing to suffer (this does not mean that one ought to make a martyr of himself for no reason). The characters of LotR go through a great deal, and through this are laid bare to us. They manage to rise above their hardships and triumph, though, and we see that it all was worth it in the end. Frankl says that sometimes to suffer is to spare one you love from suffering, and this makes it bearable. We can see this in Frodo, who has to experience horrors in order to save the rest of Middle-earth.

EDIT: Perhaps we see these individuals who risk everything in pursuit of a mission, goal, or belief, and it helps us strengthen our own resolve. It certainly is a comforting thought to realize that the struggle can be worth it in the end. Also, in response to Child's last question, regarding ourselves as "heroes in a fairy tale" could make things easier for us. Although in LotR there is some doubt among certain characters about the right choice of action (such as Aragorn at Amon Hen), many of the characters, as well as those in other such tales, often seem to have this unshakable will and understanding of what they must do. Perhaps it is that we wish we had this ability to know ourselves well enough to be so sure in our actions. Fairy tale heroes can be great warriors or little hobbits; either way, they demonstrate valor, courage, loyalty, and many other virtues, all the best qualities of people. They may have a fatal flaw, but they still are good people, and readers want to see them triumph.If we regard ourselves as these fairy tale characters we may find that we too try to live up to these virtues, thinking more of our actions in the big scheme of things. I don't know if imagining oneself as a fairy tale hero is a logical or sensible thing to do, but if it makes you a better person then I'm all for it.

Last edited by Encaitare; 01-11-2005 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Just wanted to add a bit at the end there...
Encaitare is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:33 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.