None that can hurt him? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lolidir · 01-09-2005, 01:18 PM

'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'

this takes place in Fangorn. when Gandalf meets them Aragorn does not yet have Anduril. he recieves it from Elrond's son (cant think of the name) at Dunharrow. so if you look at it, at the time none of them did carry a weapn that could hurt him. but that is a good question though. maybe Anduril could hurt him, but at that time of the book Aragorn did not have it. there is your answer

HerenIstarion · 01-09-2005, 01:39 PM

In the books, as opposed to the movie version, Aragorn has got Narsil's shards as early as his first appearence in Bree. In Rivendell, the swords is reforged and renamed. The event is even an indirect cause for Bilbo to give Frodo the Sting - Bilbo intending to have Frodo's broken sword reforged as well but forgetting about it.

So, Aragorn does have Andúril on him in Fangorn

The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit?

Why Andúril (or Narsil at its time) does work with Sauron (plus the Ring) is also explainable - Sauron is just recovering from his second loss of bodily form - what he rebuilt for himself is the 'true' flesh - he is incarnate, not able to 'shift' bodies anymore. If we stretch the thing a bit too far, in that state he may have been killed with a fork

01-12-2005, 12:43 AM

perhaps aragorn was wary, because legolas's bow and gimli's axe had already been defeated. in that case, gandalf would simply have had to move his staff ever so slightly, and aragorn would fail. and also, Isildur would have been in fury, for his father had just recieved a fatal wound.

Lolidir · 01-12-2005, 08:03 PM

heres a thought. maybe he just says that to demonstrate his new level of power. there is a weapon that can defeat everyone so to say that there is none would be ignorant. maybe it was meant that if he died he would come back. so while we are throwing out ideas why not this one. meybe it was just a boast of his powers to give them some encouraging and some motivation to keep on with their task.

Mad Baggins · 01-12-2005, 08:34 PM

Perhaps he meant that, like Oddwen said, Anduril is only dangerous against evil beings. This could prove that although Aragorn believed that Gandalf was evil and had the intent to harm him, Anduril "knew" that Gandalf was not evil and therefore could not hurt him. It could also mean that Gandalf could defeat Anduril because it is (for lack of a better word) a "good" weapon and not an evil one of the same potency:

Quote:

...Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

Lhunardawen · 01-14-2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HI

The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit?

An interesting theory, no doubt. But isn't Gandalf the Gray Maia as well? The Istari (or you

) have only been commanded by the Valar not to show the true extent of their powers, among others. So they are residing in human flesh in the form of wizards, but their spirits are still Maiar nonetheless. And it is this fact that made Gandalf's "ascension" to the White possible; otherwise he would have remained in Caradhras, a wizard clothed in gray. Gandalf the White is still like the Gray, albeit of a higher power. He is still in the form of man, and can be killed. Perhaps it is just his greater power that could protect him from the three's attacks.

radagastly · 01-14-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

But isn't Gandalf the Gray Maia as well?

Well, yes, he is, of course. Unfortunately, I'm at work right now and don't have my books with me, so I can't cite anything specific. I believe that the Wizards were not merely "clothed" in human form, but actually incarnate as human. They aged, they needed food and rest and water, they felt pain and discomfort. Gandalf died in his fight with the Balrog, and he died for real. A "clothed" Maia spirit would have simply shuffled off this mortal coil, so to speak, and headed back to Aman to pick up a new one, or made a new one for themselves right then and there. (I'm not sure how that works, exactly.)

Gandalf the WHITE , on the other hand, was indeed merely "clothed" in human form (possibly--I don't think there's any evidence to say for sure. I tend to think the line cited as the title of this thread implies that, though.) and as such, his body could be hurt, but he would not 'die' as he did in Moria. He would become an invisible spirit, as he was before.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well . . .

Oh, well. Did my best.

01-09-2005, 01:18 PM	#1
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.' this takes place in Fangorn. when Gandalf meets them Aragorn does not yet have Anduril. he recieves it from Elrond's son (cant think of the name) at Dunharrow. so if you look at it, at the time none of them did carry a weapn that could hurt him. but that is a good question though. maybe Anduril could hurt him, but at that time of the book Aragorn did not have it. there is your answer __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to" Last edited by Lolidir; 01-29-2005 at 09:13 PM.

01-09-2005, 01:39 PM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	In the books, as opposed to the movie version, Aragorn has got Narsil's shards as early as his first appearence in Bree. In Rivendell, the swords is reforged and renamed. The event is even an indirect cause for Bilbo to give Frodo the Sting - Bilbo intending to have Frodo's broken sword reforged as well but forgetting about it. So, Aragorn does have Andúril on him in Fangorn The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit? Why Andúril (or Narsil at its time) does work with Sauron (plus the Ring) is also explainable - Sauron is just recovering from his second loss of bodily form - what he rebuilt for himself is the 'true' flesh - he is incarnate, not able to 'shift' bodies anymore. If we stretch the thing a bit too far, in that state he may have been killed with a fork __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-09-2005 at 03:29 PM. Reason: loooots of typos

01-12-2005, 08:03 PM	#4
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	heres a thought. maybe he just says that to demonstrate his new level of power. there is a weapon that can defeat everyone so to say that there is none would be ignorant. maybe it was meant that if he died he would come back. so while we are throwing out ideas why not this one. meybe it was just a boast of his powers to give them some encouraging and some motivation to keep on with their task. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-12-2005, 12:43 AM	#3
orlandoscowgal Guest Posts: n/a	perhaps aragorn was wary, because legolas's bow and gimli's axe had already been defeated. in that case, gandalf would simply have had to move his staff ever so slightly, and aragorn would fail. and also, Isildur would have been in fury, for his father had just recieved a fatal wound.