Tolkien's 'Machine'

[Kalessin]

MLD ...

'War machines' were being made and destroying his beautiful childhood countryside. WWI like any war calls for a conversion in production. If they don't have enough factories they make more. It doesn't matter where they are made just as long as they are made. So, like Kalessin said, this can represent the Scouring of the Shire.

You are misquoting me, and that is not what I meant either. I did NOT say that Tolkien's representation of the Shire was linked to WWI munitions factories appearing in the countryside, and Tolkien himself explicitly denied the precise historical comparisons (or the dreaded allegories). My core point, and the essence of my post, was made in my opening paragraph -

I would say that the aspect of the 'machine', perhaps most vividly reflected in The Scouring of the Shire, and commented upon in Tolkien's letters, also includes an element of revisionist or nostalgic idealisation.

As this (and the rest of my post) makes clear, the Shire was NOT a reflection of a reality around him, either in its original form or after the Scouring. I compared Tolkien and Lawrence as near-contemporaries in the general sense that both writers could be said to have reflected on the horror of war, but made the point that unlike Lawrence Tolkien's view was romantic and had never been 'true'.

Sorry to be a real pain, as I enjoy your posts, but I also disagree with your comparison of Hobbits with the Amish. The Amish have made a conscious decision about avoiding certain technology, a decision that is explicitly ideological (or religious). In addition they are fully aware of the encroaching world, indeed their stance is an acknowledgement of that. Hobbits have, as Tolkien says, a long history of dealing with all kinds of folk, and are not bound by a religious injuction against either technology or interaction with outsiders. At best you could say the isolation evolved.

But I do agree with you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] that LotR has an ambiguity and universality that make it accessible and potentially meaningful to a wide range of readers across the generations. Archetypes - and even stereotypes - are an necessary element to such universality. My post was concerned with the nature of Tolkien's rural archetype, the sense it which it both embodies a paternalist and arguably feudal idealisation, while at the same time carrying the potency of the collective memory and nostalgia that turns oral history (and truth) into myth.

I refuse to buy any of the various editions of the movie that come out until all the films have come and gone, as it seems to me there's always room for another 'Special Edition', or 'The Newly-Revised Director's Cut of the Director's Cut' etc. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img], and also I have to eke out a fairly modest existence, but I will look out for the feature that you mention and see if I can borrow it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I am interested in this thread and hope it can develop, as the 'machine' was one of the central themes of LotR and has perhaps been discussed less than the other elements. Littlemanpoet as ever makes a worthwhile point about the sense of impersonality, or anonymity, that mass technology and warfare bring ... but it needs to be said that neither the 'old' feudal system, or any of the sociological hierarchies that persisted in England (and certainly in Tolkien's circles), had very much to recommend them .... unless you happened to be at the top of the heap [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Peace.

Kalessin

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]