Wings & Ears: Why Bother?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Child

"Sneaky" Fordim ! I think we are revisiting the "Canonicity Thread", only coming in through the back door.....

Hush! 'Tis the thread that must not be named.

Although, those were my very thoughts on reading the opening post. And like a moth to a candle once again ...

So I feel that I must repeat a refrain that may be rather familar to veterans of the C-thread. In my mind, there is a distinction to be made between facts and interpretations (although I accept that there are "grey areas" in between). My own approach is that, while I am all for the freedom of the reader when considering matters of interpretation, I am content to bow to authorial intent when it comes to matters of fact, and for much the same reason as that given by Formendacil:

Tolkien created middle-earth. It was his vision, his imagination

And, when we consider matters such as Balrog's wings, Elvish ears and Legolas' hair, we are clearly discussing facts. Thus, if presented with evidence of authorial intent on any such issues, I will gladly amend my own conception to incorporate it.

This has, in fact, happened throughout my Tolkien-reading life. When I first read LotR, The Silmarillion had not yet been published (let alone Unfinished Tales, HoME, the Letters etc). It was published a few years later, but my youthful attempts to penetrate it foundered on stony ground and I did not in fact read it until two years ago. Moreover, my original copy of LotR did not have the Appendices (save for the tale of Aragron and Arwen).

So, for much of my Tolkien-reading life, I have not been in possession of many of the facts that go to make up the Legendarium. I had no idea that Sam joined Frodo in the Undying Lands or that Legolas and Gimli also sailed West. Gandalf was clearly a powerful being, but I had no conception of Maiar or Istari. References to the Lords of the West and the names of individual Vala (Elbereth, for example) meant little to me. And I had little idea of the existence of Iluvatar, save to the extent that there are hints of a greater guiding force in certain passages of the book.

In recent years, my eyes have been opened to the wider vistas of Tolkien's Legendarium - including matters of which I was previously unaware that have a bearing on the story told in LotR. And I have accepted these into my conception of the story, and the wider world of Middle-earth.

Now, I accept that matters addressed in the Letters, which Tolkien never intended to be published, might require different treatment. But I am nevertheless content to allow facts presented in Tolkien's unpublished writings (ie those not published during his lifetime) to supersede my previous imaginings, unless incompatible with any part of the published works.

So, if it was established to my satisfaction that Tolkien intended Balrogs to have wings and Elves to have rounded ears, then I would accept that, however much it might go against my original thoughts on these issues.

Finally, one caveat: Where Tolkien's own conception of the facts clearly changed over time and there are conflicting ideas presented (such as with his ideas on the origins of Orcs), then I am content to go with that with which I feel most comfortable (although, in such cases, I am open to persuasion through discussion).

[THE Ka]

Because we're the anal retentive fans who care so much...

on another note...

Please oh, please people do not bring up the memory of Canonicity... I was so lost then, lost my mind completely. That threat made people loose their heads...Seriously! Check out the horrible spellings and reasonings that lurk there. But, there are fortunate others who survived it...


~A Wonder Ka!~

[Durelin]

*coughs*

To go back to this really quick...

But I will admit there is a point where my own imagination would take over and the professor's opinion would be second. I wonder if there is anyone else who feels this way....

I'm fairly certain I let my imagination take over, and if Tolkien would be upset by this, then he was just a grumpy old man who smoked too much. A brilliant one, mind you, but grumpy. Even after you put all the copyrights you can on a book or the like, but people can still do whatever they please with the words in it, to a certain extent. Plus you can write as many introductions, forewards, letters, readers guides - and there is a Middle-Earth for Dummies out there! - etc, as you want, but it's all still left up to the reader to decide whether you're just an old windbag who can write a jolly good yarn or not.

Facts are a different matter, but are they really important if you're not planning to be the author of such things as 'Middle-Earth for Dummies'? Okay, yes there's a certain thrill at memorizing little tidbits of information, and to have a brain full of wingless Balrogs and pointy-eared elves, but...isn't it just a fantasy world (even if the fantasy world) and a bunch of books? Is it anyone's, even Tolkien's place to say that it is his world so we've got to do it his way?

I do not mean to offend anyone, but anal rententive is perhaps a good, if exaggerated, description. Though after this I might have to learn to be as sneaky as Fordim, that tricksy one...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Even the earlier description of Balrog (HoME II, Fall of Gondolin) say only what follows:

Precisely, All the discussion notwithstanding, Tolkien's intentions as to the wingedness or not of Balrogs remains unclear. There is no definitive proof (to my mind) one way or t'other. So I am content to continue imagining Balrogs with wings.

As for the quote concerning the description of Elves, I addressed this in the Elvish ears thread (link provided by Fordim above).

Originally Posted by Durelin

Is it anyone's, even Tolkien's place to say that it is his world so we've got to do it his way?

But is it anyone's place to tell us that we cannot?

[drigel]

I am quoting LMP's quote on the Unified Mythologies thread:

Something of the answer can be found in his essay On Fairy-Stories and in his own story Leaf by Niggle, both of which suggest that a man may be given by God the gift of recording 'a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth'.

Ive always looked at the works this way. It's a sudden glimpse that the author had, and, unfortunately for us, there was not enough time for him to clear up the fog lying around the corners. It compells us to "do the work" for him. There will never be a standard, only at best a comfortable mutual aggreement on some topics. The forum here does help me work out certain anomolies and issues I have w/the legendarium in total, but (of course) it's a very internal/individual process.

[The Saucepan Man]

Er - I think that quote was by littlemanpoet (lmp rather than SmP). It certainly doesn't sound like the sort of thing that I would say ...

[drigel]

*cough*
duly noted and edited

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Durelin

*coughs*

I'm fairly certain I let my imagination take over, and if Tolkien would be upset by this, then he was just a grumpy old man who smoked too much. A brilliant one, mind you, but grumpy. Even after you put all the copyrights you can on a book or the like, but people can still do whatever they please with the words in it, to a certain extent. Plus you can write as many introductions, forewards, letters, readers guides - and there is a Middle-Earth for Dummies out there! - etc, as you want, but it's all still left up to the reader to decide whether you're just an old windbag who can write a jolly good yarn or not.

Actually I think he would be entitled to be upset without deserving that sort of insult ... I get pretty upset if I have spent all morning cooking something and someone comes along and tinkers with it to their own taste and spoiling it for me if I had spent 60 years on something...... So I think JRRT would have every right to turn in his grave or claim that "it is my ball and I'm going home now".

[drigel]

By the fact that there were readers guides and appendixes, etc, gives credence to the fact that the man was brilliant IMO, regardless of how good/bad the story was. The structure was put together well enough to warrant the publications.

There are 2 heads to this dog as i see it: internal and external.

The internal visualization, and inspired creativity that results in some from reading the works can, and does, lead to many things that i think JRRT would be complimented by. But, because this is internal, there can be no objectivity. That is why I pretty darned sure that no matter how good it is (PJ's included), there will be no film made ever that will really capture how I feel the ME universe would be like, and how the story is relayed to me. Any work of art ever created is interpreted. If there were a way, there would be a "Caveman's guide to cave art for Neanderthal dummies" made and distributed. I bet that would have sold a lot too...

The external: This to me is an "after the fact" argument. Yes, JRRT would be highly dismayed. Most, if not all but the purely academic stuff, would have probably had a pack of lawyers all over it if the man was around. It was an evolving work all the way to the end, as I see it. But at that point, the door to the vision was shut utterly, and all we can do is pour over the notes and scribbles and argue this and that and intent. The finite time that there could be Answers had reached its end long before I could do anything about it anyways. At that point, there is nothing but interpretation. We can't ask the creator ..

So, my answer to the original question is: No it doesnt matter, really. But I can admit to what I dont know, and tell you I am unsure about this or that. I can definately argue my interpretation!!

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SpM

Where Tolkien's own conception of the facts clearly changed over time and there are conflicting ideas presented (such as with his ideas on the origins of Orcs), then I am content to go with that with which I feel most comfortable (although, in such cases, I am open to persuasion through discussion).

Even the earlier description of Balrog (HoME II, Fall of Gondolin) say only what follows:

Yet as meed of treachery did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldoli who durst withstand him in anything

Emphasis mine

Ears re:

S77

In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty

Ok, stature does not include form of the ear, but if they were so special, and a sigh of difference, I'm pretty sure Tolkien would have mentioned it, eh?

and already mentioned letter of Tolkien:

L153

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Besides, I'm unable to dig up a quote at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that elves and men were told apart by their eyes and voices. If the ears were so explicitly different, why bother with eyes and sound at all?