Drinking Contest: Any Support From the Books?

[Neithan]

Yes. This scene, even more than others, made me grit my teeth. It is so wrong. When PJ made these movies he apparently decided that he could do away with the personalities of both Legolas and Gimli. He decided to make Legolas into an action hero/heart throb who, is apparantly unbeatable and almost to the level of a god (mummakil). And Gimli they reduced to the comic relief character (as if a Dwarf were anything to laugh at!).

[Ainaserkewen]

My own feelings aside about this scene, the real questions is whether or not an Elf could beat a Dwarf at drinking.

What evidence do we have? Elf guards get smashed in the Hobbit, although I'm inclined to think it was probably really strong wine and they had a lot with the intent on getting drunk. I also remember Legolas mention his fondness of wine at Isenguard so I've come to the conclution that the Elves of Mirkwood, Silvan and Sindarin alike probably really like wine. So I could argue that Legolas would have a high tolerance after how many centuries of grand Elven parties.

Facts aside, I love that scene. Only because if you watch the cast commentary with it, you'll learn that most of Gimli's antics are improv and Orlando admits to being a "light weight" when it comes to drinking. I think Dominic says something like "He has a little and he's yours."

it does seem strange that Jackson and co should include this totally gratuitous scene

It's all in good fun Saucepan Man, didn't you like seeing the characters in this particular setting? It's like good fanfiction, only...you know, not written or done by amatures.

[Mad Baggins]

When I first heard about the drinking scene, I disapproved, but when I saw it in the movie I have to admit it was rather funny. All in all I didn't mind (although they could have put a more useful scene in... short epilogue, anyone?) but Gimli's comment about swimming with little hairy women did catch me off guard.

[Mister Underhill]

That scene seems to be Jackson's homage to Spielberg: the drinking contest is very reminiscent of a similar scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark (which of course starred Rhys-Davies) in Marion's bar in Nepal, and the "little hairy women" line echoes Quint's toast, "Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!" from Jaws. Maybe someone who has listened to the director's commentary can offer more insight...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Neithan

When PJ made these movies he apparently decided that he could do away with the personalities of both Legolas and Gimli.

Legolas and Gimli had personalities in the book ... !!?



*Ducks flying DVD EEs*

Originally Posted by Ainaserkewen

I've come to the conclution that the Elves of Mirkwood, Silvan and Sindarin alike probably really like wine.

I would agree with your conclusion. Although it is another point against the scene being accurate in book terms, as it portrays Legolas as having no concept of the enjoyment of alcohol (poor dear).

It's all in good fun Saucepan Man, didn't you like seeing the characters in this particular setting?

As I said, I did enjoy the scene. But it was gratuitous (to the plot).

[Neithan]

Legolas and Gimli had personalities in the book ... !!?

Very funny. At least in the books they were more than a stuntman and a clown!

And another thing, is it just me or was PJ much more fond of Elves than Dwarves ("That still only counts as one"). I have a problem with him incorporating his personal preferences into the movies (especially since I don't share them).
This scene was indeed gratuitous, but I would have shrugged it off if Gimli had won, which he obviously should have.

[Ainaserkewen]

as it portrays Legolas as having no concept of the enjoyment of alcohol (poor dear).

Yes, but wasn't it delightfully silly when he says his fingers are tingling, almost as if he's making fun of the whole event?

And another thing, is it just me or was PJ much more fond of Elves than Dwarves ("That still only counts as one").

I wouldn't say "more fond of". A lot of people seemed to like the up-played rivalry between those two and the fact that Gimli seemed to take it more seriously. Legolas's character wouldn't work as the guy who's secretly jealous and always wants to get the upper hand. Gimli only loses once really in the movies with the infamous drinking screne and he initiated it, he wanted to prove that he was better than Legolas at something. In the movies they never tell you who won the orc killing contest but the books have Gimli win by one and that further developes the relationship between the Dwarf and the Elf.

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Legolas and Gimli had personalities in the book ... !!?

It was another that had me thinking, "PJ, you can waste time on this drivel but you felt the need to cut real LOTR book content."

I think on one of the commentaries (Cameras in middle-earth?) Jackson said that one of the reasons he included the scene was because howard shore has a cameo appearance in it and he was really keen on having it in the movie. (He is one of the drunken rohirrim)

[radagastly]

AbercrombieOfRohan said:

I think on one of the commentaries (Cameras in middle-earth?) Jackson said that one of the reasons he included the scene was because howard shore has a cameo appearance in it and he was really keen on having it in the movie. (He is one of the drunken rohirrim)

True enough, though I think it also says that in the final edit of the drinking scene, the shots that included Howard Shore ended up on the cutting room floor anyway. I enjoyed the scene, though I agree there was probably some other more Tolkien-related content that could have been included instead. For example, the scene of Sam getting past the watchers at the gate of Cirith Ungol was filmed, but did not make the final cut of the EE. I would like to have seen what P.J. did with that. Or he might have expanded the Houses of Healing scenes to include more of Faramir's and Eowyn's dialogue. Interspersed with Liv Tyler's singing it would have made quite a lovely scene, instead of feeling rushed and too brief as it did.

I enjoyed the drinking game, however I agree it would have been more believable if Gimli had won.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by AbercrombieOfRohan

:
I think on one of the commentaries (Cameras in middle-earth?) Jackson said that one of the reasons he included the scene was because howard shore has a cameo appearance in it and he was really keen on having it in the movie. (He is one of the drunken rohirrim)

So the EE stuff was more for the cast and crew than for us, as the pirate scene was all about PJ.