Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Formendacil · 01-11-2005, 06:25 PM

Okay, I'll admit that I was going out a bit on a limb with Ungoliant...

Perhaps it would be wrong to call her a Maia, as such...

She is definitely an Ainu, though. There is no debating that all the spirits created by Eru in the beginning, in time for the Music, were the Ainur, and that all the spirits who came to Arda in the beginning of the world were, of necessity, Ainur.

Here's where I perhaps made my mistake, that of automatically classifying each and every Ainu who came to Arda as either a Vala or a Maia. This strategy would seem to be born out by the Valaquenta, but I'll admit that it might be more accurate to say that all the Ainur in Arda were ORIGINALLY classified as either Valar or Maiar, and that those who turned evil lost the designation. In any event, I am willing to admit that I could have been wrong in my application of the term.

Perhaps she wasn't a Maia, persay, but she MUST have been an Ainu. She must have been one of the those spirits who created the Music for Eru, or at least the offspring of such. What else can she have been?

And while the term Ainur is not really used in the context of the spirits attendant at the Music once they are in Arda, where the terms Valar, Maiar, Balrogs, Istari, etc. are more proper and correct, the fact remains that all of these must have in origin been Ainur.

obloquy · 01-11-2005, 06:31 PM

Why must she have been an Ainu?

Formendacil · 01-11-2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why must she have been an Ainu?

Process of elimination.

What ELSE could she have been?

Elf? No.

Man? Weren't even awake, but No anyway.

Dwarf? See above.

Ent? A tree that eats trees? No.

Ork? Maybe. But in spider shape? Besides, with Ainur thrown in, Orks would appear to be one of the above.

Fea-less creature: Only possibility left. However, it would seem apparent (at least to MY deranged imagination) that Ungoliant had thoughts and a fea.

What else is left?

Plant? Mineral?

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-11-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What ELSE could she have been?

How can we be sure that the list that you give is a complete list of all sentient beings within, or indeed without, Arda?

What about the Stone Giants that Bilbo sees in the Misty Mountains and Gandalf refers to?

What about the infamous fox that note the Hobbits' journey through the Shire?

They can be explained by putting them down to the fictional author's whimsy, but that is only one explanation.

And what about Huan, the Eagles and Shadowfax? Can we be sure that they were Maiarin in origin?

Moreover, Neithan's helpful (for me) explanation of Ealar indicates that there were spirits originating outside Arda who were not Ainur.

Formendacil · 01-11-2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

How can we be sure that the list that you give is a complete list of all sentient beings within, or indeed without, Arda?

What about the Stone Giants that Bilbo sees in the Misty Mountains and Gandalf refers to?

What about the infamous fox that noticed the Hobbits' journey through the Shire?

They can be explained by putting them down to the fictional author's whimsy, but that is only one explanation.

And what about Huan, the Eagles and Shadowfax? Can we be sure that they were Maiarin in origin?

Moreover, Neithan's helpful (for me) explanation of Ealar indicates that there were spirits originating outside Arda who were not Ainur.

Your points are all well taken, but in the case of Ungoliant at least, the implications seem obvious to me, if to no one else. Call in a deeply-engrained thought-habit, if you like.

I'd also like to see the references for these ealar. Not just hte quotes, but where to find them. Cause I've never heard of them before, and I consider myself fairly well-read Tolkienwise. Not that a new text to devour would go amiss, by any means, and certainly I don't have the entire HoME commited to memor, but I'm still completely unable to recall having heard of them before...

obloquy · 01-12-2005, 12:22 AM

Discussion of ealar is in the latter three HoMe volumes, but which texts specifically I cannot recall at the moment. Tomorrow I may be able to provide more specific information.

Saucepan Man is right, though. There is no evidence of other classes of ealar besides Ainur, but there is also no reason to believe Ainur were the only kind of ealar. Why call them Ainur if they're the only kind of ealar anyway? Wouldn't one term or the other suffice?

Formendacil · 01-12-2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

Discussion of ealar is in the latter three HoMe volumes, but which texts specifically I cannot recall at the moment. Tomorrow I may be able to provide more specific information.

Saucepan Man is right, though. There is no evidence of other classes of ealar besides Ainur, but there is also no reason to believe Ainur were the only kind of ealar. Why call them Ainur if they're the only kind of ealar anyway? Wouldn't one term or the other suffice?

Hmm... Now I'm REALLY curious about these references, because I both own and have read (multiple times) the last few volumes of the HoME. And I can't remember a thing....

As for the variation of terms...

Different languages, different applications... Think humans vs. people. They're the same things in our world, right? But we have two words. In the same language.

Besides which, one has to remember that Tolkien often replaced terms with new words, then switched back, or forgot, or invented yet another term...

Whatever the case, I'm looking forward to seeing this reference.

Bêthberry · 01-11-2005, 07:02 PM

On the other hand, Ungoliant could be a vague allusion to another character from deep back in the misty dawn of mythological lore. Who has uncontrolled appetites, who harbours a vile appearance, who is the epitome of disobedience and willfulness and even bestiality? No, not Eve, but Adam's first wife, lost in the nether reaches of time. Lilith. At least according to some of the versions of the legends we have. How to fit her into the Legendarium, of course, is another problem.

Neithan · 01-11-2005, 07:03 PM

Yes, I will try to find the quote that I based that Ealar assertion on.
SpM, glad I could help.

If anyone wants more information on Ealar try here

Edit: I am having a hard time finding the quote. I don't have the book that it is from, but if memory serves than it was posted at one point during a Bombadil debate in order to say that he might be such a being. If anyone knows what quote I am talking about will they help me out?

01-11-2005, 06:25 PM	#1
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Okay, I'll admit that I was going out a bit on a limb with Ungoliant... Perhaps it would be wrong to call her a Maia, as such... She is definitely an Ainu, though. There is no debating that all the spirits created by Eru in the beginning, in time for the Music, were the Ainur, and that all the spirits who came to Arda in the beginning of the world were, of necessity, Ainur. Here's where I perhaps made my mistake, that of automatically classifying each and every Ainu who came to Arda as either a Vala or a Maia. This strategy would seem to be born out by the Valaquenta, but I'll admit that it might be more accurate to say that all the Ainur in Arda were ORIGINALLY classified as either Valar or Maiar, and that those who turned evil lost the designation. In any event, I am willing to admit that I could have been wrong in my application of the term. Perhaps she wasn't a Maia, persay, but she MUST have been an Ainu. She must have been one of the those spirits who created the Music for Eru, or at least the offspring of such. What else can she have been? And while the term Ainur is not really used in the context of the spirits attendant at the Music once they are in Arda, where the terms Valar, Maiar, Balrogs, Istari, etc. are more proper and correct, the fact remains that all of these must have in origin been Ainur. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

01-11-2005, 07:02 PM	#8
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	On the other hand, Ungoliant could be a vague allusion to another character from deep back in the misty dawn of mythological lore. Who has uncontrolled appetites, who harbours a vile appearance, who is the epitome of disobedience and willfulness and even bestiality? No, not Eve, but Adam's first wife, lost in the nether reaches of time. Lilith. At least according to some of the versions of the legends we have. How to fit her into the Legendarium, of course, is another problem. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

01-11-2005, 07:03 PM	#9
Neithan Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 126	Yes, I will try to find the quote that I based that Ealar assertion on. SpM, glad I could help. If anyone wants more information on Ealar try here Edit: I am having a hard time finding the quote. I don't have the book that it is from, but if memory serves than it was posted at one point during a Bombadil debate in order to say that he might be such a being. If anyone knows what quote I am talking about will they help me out? __________________ If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau Last edited by Neithan; 01-11-2005 at 08:13 PM.

01-11-2005, 06:31 PM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Why must she have been an Ainu?

01-12-2005, 12:22 AM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Discussion of ealar is in the latter three HoMe volumes, but which texts specifically I cannot recall at the moment. Tomorrow I may be able to provide more specific information. Saucepan Man is right, though. There is no evidence of other classes of ealar besides Ainur, but there is also no reason to believe Ainur were the only kind of ealar. Why call them Ainur if they're the only kind of ealar anyway? Wouldn't one term or the other suffice?