Magic in Middle-earth

[Neithan]

Thank you SpM for the links and the quote.
Just a quick thought before I plunge into the threads,

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word

I think that Tolkien is acknowleging that the different kinds of "magic" are not necessarily related. It does seem that I will have to revise my ideas on how the magic of the Ainur works though.

[Nukapei]

Thanks, Saucepan Man, for that Tolkien quote. When one doesn't understand something, it's usually best to go to the source! But that's more-or-less how I had pictured magic being used in Middle-earth -- it's there, but as more of a last-resort type thing. However, I, like Neithan, will now have to revise my views of the different types of magic!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Seems to me the more I read and think about this topic the less it seems that there is magic in Middle-earth. There is only the Lore, Art and Knowledge of the West which is present in various forms.

I mean, I honestly can't think of a single 'magical' character, item or anything that doesn't owe its descent to the West: either via Morgoth and Sauron, the Istari, or the Noldor. There's nothing strictly speaking magical about any of what they do: there are only well crafted objects, manifestations of their own natural powers or abilities, etc.

Seems to me, that in the East of Middle-earth, where none of these powers are known -- except for Sauron -- there would be no 'magic' except for the dark perversions and illusions practiced by the Dark Lord.

[radagastly]

Fordim

Seems to me, that in the East of Middle-earth, where none of these powers are known -- except for Sauron -- there would be no 'magic' except for the dark perversions and illusions practiced by the Dark Lord.

Don't forget Alatar and Pollando. They were wizards, after all, and if they failed of their mission as Tolkien surmised, and abandoned the restrictions that brought Gandalf to success, then no doubt they had some real magic, er nature, to show the Eastern people.

[The Saucepan Man]

There's nothing strictly speaking magical about any of what they do: there are only well crafted objects, manifestations of their own natural powers or abilities, etc.

What is magic if not the manifestation of the natural powers or abilities of someone or something? Surely, in its most basic form, magic is simply a term for that which cannot be explained. Once it can be explained, it is no longer magical. Hence Galadriel's fountain appears magical to Frodo and Sam, but she does not view it in the same way.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

What is magic if not the manifestation of the natural powers or abilities of someone or something? Surely, in its most basic form, magic is simply a term for that which cannot be explained. Once it can be explained, it is no longer magical. Hence Galadriel's fountain appears magical to Frodo and Sam, but she does not view it in the same way.

That's my point. All that is considered magical in Middle-earth is really 'just' the expression of the natural powers or abilities brought by those who have been to the West. And they got it from the Valar, who got it from Illuvatar, who created the natural world and everything in it -- to the magic we see is just another part of the created nature. It's just a part of nature that is 'out of place' in Middle-earth insofar as it more properly belongs to the West.

[The Saucepan Man]

Then we are in agreement. Save, perhaps, on one point:

Originally Posted by Fordim

It's just a part of nature that is 'out of place' in Middle-earth insofar as it more properly belongs to the West.

I wouldn't even say that magic is necessarily out of place in Middle-earth. The natural powers and abilities of Elves are sometimes referred to as magic (from the perspective of other races), and they awoke in Middle-earth. Or would you say that all such powers were taught to them by the Lords of the West, and that they had no innate "magical" powers or abilities of their own?

I think that the powers of any race which cannot be explained by another might potentially be referred to by those others as "magic". Was it Gandalf who said that there is a magic of sorts in the Shire? The natural powers of Hobbits which are not present, or not as developed, in other races. Their indomitability, their toughness in a pinch, their loyalty and friendship and their humility (which enables them to better withstand the "magical" deceptions of the One Ring, since there is little that it can offer them). And then there is their ability to move quietly and "disappear" (without the aid of any magical Ring) when they do not want to be seen. That too might be described as a magic of sorts.

So, yes, I would describe magic as the innate (or learned) abilities and powers of a being which is perceived as inexplicable by beings of a different order. But I do not think it exclusive (in origin) to the Undying Lands (although all such power does, of course, ultimately originate from Iluvatar).

[Gurthang]

But you must also remember that Man and Elves came from Eru, also, so they may have had some 'magic' in them from the start. It does seem that men possess very little(if any) magic, but that may come from them being much younger than Elves.

In some cases, 'magic' does seem to simply stem from technology. For instance, Sauron's ringcraft was something developed and refined. That doesn't sound like magic. It sounds more like the painstaking work that it took to harness electricity.

But I think there is a line where 'magic' becomes the magic that we think of. Luthien singing and putting Morgoth to sleep would be an example of this. The 'light-up" ability of swords like Narsil and Sting is another. These seem like magic magic to us, but may not have to the elves.

It's kind of like magic tricks. All magicians know that their tricks are just that: tricks. It seems like magic to those who don't know how it's done. They see the trick, and say, "That's magic!". But anyone who knows how the trick is done knows the truth. They can see that it's just an illusion, so it isn't magic to them.