LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[The Saucepan Man]

Interesting thoughts, Bêthberry. It ties in with the quote that Esty gave at the beginning of this thread suggesting that, in the Ents and the Entwives, Tolkien was, in a very general way, articulating his thoughts on the difference between male and female approaches to nature. My own thoughts in this regard are set out in my first post on this thread.

But I do wonder how far we can take the Entwife/Eve/Sauron analogy. I said in my first post:

In any event, I wonder which approach Tolkien felt more drawn towards. It seems to me that he had some sympathy for both. Neither the Ents nor the Entwives are portrayed as being "wrong", although the description of the Entwives' approach (involving, as it does, a rejection of love of something for its own sake) is perhaps the less sympathetic. And, while he had what might be described as an "unpossessive love” of trees, Tolkien also had a great deal of time for the landscape of rural England which was (and is), like the Shire, tamed to quite a considerable degree. So it seems quite possible to me that, in both The Old Forest Chapter and in this Chapter, with the tale of the Ents and the Entwives, he is working through his own feelings and attitudes to nature.

The approaches of the Entwives and the Hobbits of the Shire seem remarkably similar to me. Treebeard even comments that the Shire seems to him to be a place that the Entwives would have liked. So I am not sure that he was entirely unsympathetic towards the Entwives and their approach to nature.

Although (in reference to the title of this post) I have no doubt that he would have disapproved of their approach taken to its extreme.

[Bêthberry]

My apologies, Sauce, if you believe I have overlooked yours and Esty's considerable contributions here. As Esty can attest, the vicissitudes of the holiday kept me away from posting at the time and I had been waiting for a moment to reply that would not intrude upon a different topic in the discussion.

What I had been hoping to do was hightlight a different aspect of the entwives tale. Unlike you, I was more than a little perplexed at the associations Tolkien gave to the entwives and to 'females' in general. Let me attempt to retrace what set me off on my interpretive scheme.

One of the outstanding themes of this chapter, for me, is the importance of language and of story. You have already suggested that the omission of the hobbits from Treebeard's list is an example of Tolkien's ironic play upon the absence of hobbits from the Legendarium. I like this idea, as it suggests a more light-hearted and playful Tolkien than we sometimes recognise. Yet this is just one of a series of examplea of the use of story and language in the chapter.

Consider for example Treebeard's warning about the hobbits telling their own names. (A reservation shared, we know, with the dwarves.)

Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language.

We go from a list that 'proves' or describes existence to an idea of hidden stories within words in this Old Entish. The context surrounding this is a delightful back and forth dialogue between the hobbits and Treebeard. They listen to each other. (This is in very interesting contrast to the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf in the subsequent chapter, where almost before any words are spoken or listening is done, weapons are raised. ) It is the language, the stories within the language, which make the experience 'real'.

We then learn a very important lesson about the elves. Treebeard recounts the story.

it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since.

It would almost appear that there is a reverse kind of Babel going on here, with the Elves encouraging the spread of language, although I am not sure how Old Entish derives from Elvish or which the Shepherds of the Trees spoke first. But the coming into awareness or sentience is thoroughly equated with language. And not just one language, but apparently many languages, for each species of sentient being.

So, the chapter sets up a very important theme. This theme then becomes a major aspect in distinguishing the ents from the entwives. Others have quoted part of the passage, but I would like here to give it in its entirety.

But our [the ents' and the entwives'] hearts did not go on growing in the same way: the Ents gave their love to things that they met in the world, and the Entwives gave their thought to other thngs, for the Ents loved the great trees, and the wild woods, and the slopes of the hight hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams, and ate only such fruit as the trees let fall in their path; and they learned of the Elves and spoke with the Trees. But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and tahey saw the sloe in the thicket; and tahe wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seedling grassess in the autumn fields. They did not desire to speak with these things' but they wished them to hear and obey what was said to them..

This is the opposite of the value which the chapter has previously promoted, listening and learning each other's language and despite Spm's claim of some sympathy for the entwives' position, I find it very interesting that to the female of the species is given the reject of cooperative language. So I won't be accused of cutting off the quotation, let me conclude it.

The Entwives ordered them [the plants] to grow according to their wishes, and bear leaf and fruit to their liking; for the Entwives desried order, and plenty, andpeache (by which they meant that things should remain where they had set them.) So the Entwives made gardens to live in. But we Ents went on wandering; and we only came ot the gardens now and again.

While it is clear that the Ents are not held blameless, I am intrigued by these values that are given to the females. Often in mythology--and this is a generalisation I grant--females are depicted as being the wild ones who cannot live within discipline and restraint. I also have little personal experience with this sense of women being resistent to other languages, for most often it seems to me that it is women who have the communicative skills to create community and family. For instance, in my country, women are accounted better managers and owners of small businesses because they 'manage' their employees less hierarchically than male managers. But to return to "Garden": here I think i it pertains to much more than simply the typical English country garden. Perhaps it functions as a way of expressing distain for domesticity as opposed to the stirring desire for adventure.

But to link "garden" this way with linguistic traits is to take the reference out of the purely floral range I think. thus, I started to ruminate on the garden in literature and that of course leads to the old story of knowledge of good and evil. I too would not want to take the allusion to Sauron too far, but I think it clearly exists, particularly in that allusion to "unpossessive love". And while Saucy might be right to point out the similarities here with The Shire, the Entwives are also give the same attribution as the Elves themselves: they wanted things to remain "whree they put them". That is, they wished to stop change. Or to control change.

It is a most complex story and one which I am sure, as Tolkien himself wrote, "percolated" in his mind for a very long time.