Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[obloquy]

No, the spirits of the Incarnates remain fëar even when unhoused because they are naturally incarnate, rather than naturally discarnate. The Children were created as incarnate beings whose fëa and hröa are bound to the point that the separation of the two results in 'death'. When an Incarnate dies, the being's 'fate' comes into play: for Elves it is to return to Aman; for Men it is mysterious; for incarnated ëalar it seems to be something like limbo--they kinda float around aimlessly and powerlessly. An ëala could probably be referred to as a fëa without crossing any lines, but a fëa could not be called an ëala.

At least, this is my take on it, based on the fact that Tolkien only uses the word ëalar to refer to spirits that we know were discarnate in their beginnings. This may be, of course, because the term is a new one in this emendation.

Why assume there was some other kind of being than the Ainur------what are the Ainur anyway?

We're not assuming that there were, we are saying that it is undeniable that there could have been. Ainur and ëalar are basically the same thing, except that the term ëalar potentially encompasses more. Ainur are all spirits who fall into either the Vala or Maia category, but ëalar are all spirits whose created nature is incorporeal.

All right, davem. You have succeeded in being a pest. I thought it was clear enough so I didn't go into it, but I will clarify just for you.

The portion I quoted is an emendation. This is the original text:

But the other Valar came seldom thither; and in the North Melkor built his strength, and gathered his demons about him. These were the first made of his creatures: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days.

I have put the portion that was obviously replaced in bold. The preceding sentence was retained, however, as it lends context to the "these" that begins the next sentence of the emendation. The final version, therefore, would read thus:

But the other Valar came seldom thither; and in the North Melkor built his strength, and gathered his demons about him. These were the (ëalar) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days.

So, these 'demons' spoke of in the first sentence that Melkor gathered around him were the 'spirits' whom he had first corrupted, who later became known as Balrogs. The sentence does not read "These were the ëalar, the spirits who first adhered to him..." The parenthetical ëalar is semantic: Tolkien is providing his term for the word 'spirits'. There is a footnote to the word ëalar which defines them as discarnate beings. The nature of Balrogs is never adjusted from fallen Maiar after these revisions, not even in Myths Transformed.

This may be a bit late, but...

Well, I admitted myself that there could just as well be three rankings as four. But it was a somewhat minor point...

I submit that there need only be two rankings: 1) Melkor, 2) Umaiar.

[Neithan]

I submit that there need only be two rankings: 1) Melkor, 2) Umaiar

Yes, but this rather misses the point. He was pointing out the relative differences of power and rank between the Umaiar. Therefore let us say that the 2nd ranking is split up into two or three sub-rankings with Sauron at the top and lesser servents such as Boldogs at the bottom.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Neithan

Yes, but this rather misses the point. He was pointing out the relative differences of power and rank between the Umaiar. Therefore let us say that the 2nd ranking is split up into two or three sub-rankings with Sauron at the top and lesser servents such as Boldogs at the bottom.

Since Sauron gets his own ranking, we might as well make a separate ranking for each individual Umaia, since all Maiar (and thus all Balrogs) were not created equal.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Since Sauron gets his own ranking, we might as well make a separate ranking for each individual Umaia, since all Maiar (and thus all Balrogs) were not created equal.

The idea of ranking wasn't so much intended to be a formal division of the Umaiar, but rather a way of marking off exactly what sort of Umaiar I was thinking of in terms of power when I refered to them as Boldogs. I wanted to make it clear that I was talking about the Umaiar on the bottom of the ladders, ones that were NOT Balrogs or Saurons in terms of their power. It was a mistake on my part to subdivide the Balrogs and Sauron perhaps, but it seemed at the time to be permissible, since in my mind Sauron is about as much greater than the average Balrog as the average Balrog is over the average Boldog.

The only formal categories, I agree, that need be are Melkor/Morgoth and the Umaiar. The Vala gone bad, and the Maiar gone bad.

However, you have to admit that there are differences in power between the various Maiar. Sauron is (or was, rather) obviously a Maia of rather incredible power. I should have said that he was in a rather select category, one inhabited by Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse, Uinen, and maybe Melian as well. These are the Ainur who were very powerful and influential, obviously above their peers in terms of influence and might, but none of whom is a Vala.

If I were to go hunting for "good" equivalents of the Balrog class, I should put the Istari here. True, it is said that Gandalf and Saruman were Sauron's peers, but to be peers is not necessarily to be equals. Admittedly, there is some variation within the class, as always. Saruman (and Gandalf reborn) was probably at the top of scale, the 'good' opposite (in his earlier life) of Gothmog. You could also put Melian in this category (as I would) if you feel that she doesn't really merit the "Great Maiar" category.

There aren't really any named equivalents of the Boldogs, but I'm sure that they exist. Most of the "hosts" of Valinor would likely be less powerful rather than more. These would be the spirits that have nothing better to do than sing in halls of Manwe or dance on the lawns of Vana.

CORRECTION: I just thought of some good equivalents of the Boldogs: the Eagles and Huan, assuming that you agree with the assumption/theory that they were Maiar.

Anyway, I suppose that I'm just entrenching my association with this "categorising" all the more deeply, but the intent of this post was originally to clarify my original intent. The rest of it just grew out of related thoughts I had on the subject.

[Neithan]

There aren't really any named equivalents of the Boldogs, but I'm sure that they exist.

I would say that there is probably an order that is of even less power than the Boldogs, hence the quote, "only less formidable than the Balrogs". I would take this to mean that the rest of the Umaiar in Morgoth's service are lesser than the Boldogs.

[obloquy]

I would say that there is probably an order that is of even less power than the Boldogs, hence the quote, "only less formidable than the Balrogs". I would take this to mean that the rest of the Umaiar in Morgoth's service are lesser than the Boldogs.

I don't see how that assertion follows from the quote. Please elaborate.

Formendacil: Understood. I won't harass you on the grounds of your rankings any more. However...

the Eagles and Huan, assuming that you agree with the assumption/theory that they were Maiar

It seems that Tolkien's latest feelings on the matter is that they are not Maiar. There's still the question of whether one chooses to accept as canon the late writings as presented by C. Tolkien.

I should have said that he was in a rather select category, one inhabited by Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse, Uinen, and maybe Melian as well. These are the Ainur who were very powerful and influential, obviously above their peers in terms of influence and might, but none of whom is a Vala.

And Olorin.

since in my mind Sauron is about as much greater than the average Balrog as the average Balrog is over the average Boldog.

In your mind, maybe, but it is not necessarily so. The level of power may have varied greatly even within each class of Umaiar. Furthermore, Balrogs were not made Balrogs because they couldn't live up to Sauronhood; they were Balrogs because they were Maiar of fire. They were a distinguished class of Morgoth's servants that were presumably as individual as the Istari.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I don't see how that assertion follows from the quote. Please elaborate.

Formendacil: Understood. I won't harass you on the grounds of your rankings any more. However...

It seems that Tolkien's latest feelings on the matter is that they [the Eagles and Huan] are not Maiar. There's still the question of whether one chooses to accept as canon the late writings as presented by C. Tolkien.

Hence my use of the term, "if".

Originally Posted by obloquy

In your mind, maybe, but it is not necessarily so. The level of power may have varied greatly even within each class of Umaiar. Furthermore, Balrogs were not made Balrogs because they couldn't live up to Sauronhood; they were Balrogs because they were Maiar of fire. They were a distinguished class of Morgoth's servants that were presumably as individual as the Istari.

More or less agreed to. But you will admit, surely, that Sauron seems to have been a Mair (or Umaia, rather) of exceptional power. He is, after all, Morgoth's lieutenant, given command of the fortress of Angband in the times before Melkor's captivity. And he is given a much greater level of independence in the command of Melkor's forces. For instance, he is credited by Tolkien as having rebuilt Melkor's armies while he was captive in Valinor. Sauron, while powerful, was no Vala or former Vala as Melkor was, hence his position as Melkor's deputy must have been quite strongly acknowledged, and there must have been no one who was really considered a contender.

I would also dispute the level of power that you put the Boldogs on, since it relies on the interpretation of the semantics of a single sentence, but since there is so little to be known about Boldogs in the first place, I will not try to impose my views on anyone, but will remain to content to hold them for myself, barring further revelations.