Lembas - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 01-14-2005, 02:13 AM

Lostgaeriel,

Hmm... That's fascinating.

I'm no Elvish scholar, but the origin of the word 'lembas' is Sindarin, and means journey or waybread. The older form is 'lenn-mbass'. I believe another Quenyan name was 'coimas' or bread of life.

My guess is that "lembas" as a word existed before Tolkien wrote the particular scene between Merry and Pippin that you are describing. In that sense, the similar Cornish word wouldn't have had a direct impact on the origin of lembas. However, Tolkien knew a vast number of languages and it's certainly possible he had the Cornish word in the back of his mind as he wrote out that particular passage, hence giving the scene an underlying double meaning.

By the way, on my dad's side, I am a "Cousin Jenny" whose family came to the UP of Michigan long years ago to mine copper. I know absolutely no Cornish, but I do make a "mean" pasty and also saffron cake. The story you tell about throwing the pasties down the mine shaft and not having them break....I heard that many times in my childhood (although definitely in English!). If I heard such a tale way across the Atlantic, surely JRRT would have been aware of it, as well as the actual dialect and language that would have been used. Shippey has show how much "word play" there is shot throughout LotR. This could be another instance. But, like you, I can only guess. Perhaps there's someone else who can speak with more certainty on this.

I have a Cornish dictionary on mail order. If and when it gets here, I'll have a look at that word to see what it says. I couldn't find anything directly relevent in the Cornish word lists on the internet. Thanks for the reference to that 'pasty book'. I'll try to dig up a copy.

Lostgaeriel · 01-14-2005, 08:57 AM

Thanks Child of the 7th Age!

I'm not sure if lembs is actually a Cornish word. Like you, I can't find it in any of the on-line Cornish dictionaries. Perhaps it's a long-out-of-use English word.

My mother's family is from Cornwall. I'll be visiting my relatives there in the spring - first time for me. I'll ask them about the word.

Rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn. Free Cornwall Now.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 01-14-2005, 11:17 AM

Well, I don't know how relevant or helpful this might be but it's what I was able to uncover:

lem is a form of the Old English word leam which means, "light, flame; a flash, ray, or gleam of light; brightness, gleam."

bas is an archaic (Middle-English, like in Chaucer or Gawain) form of base. In the earliest uses of the word, the moral or social connotations were not at play (that is, people were not of "base" birth, bad behaviour was not considered "base"). Instead, it meant simply that something was low or close to the ground (earth?).

So how's this: lem+bas = a gleam of light or flame that is close to the earth?

This would make sense insofar as lembas is a form of Elvish magic, but it is also bread: what could be more homey than that?

(I just love the Oxford English Dictionary.)

Mithalwen · 01-14-2005, 11:18 AM

Sindarin I believe is based on Welsh, which I believe is in the same language family as Cornish. So it is not impossible that Tolkien knew this word .. but if he didn't I think he would have been pleased by the coincidence.

Ooh saffron cake .... yummy.....

Lalwendë · 01-14-2005, 03:38 PM

In Breton 'bread' is bara, and I think it is the same in Welsh. If Cornish, Welsh and Breton are all of the same family wouldn't the word for bread be similar? Correct me if I'm wrong! Lembs could be some kind of dialect word (drawn no doubt from the Cornish language) for 'bits'.

As an aside, I read in Bill Bryson's The Lost Continent that he was travelling through a quite desolate part of Michigan when he saw a sign advertising Cornish Pasties and intrigued had to go and find out more. It is obviously an area with a history of immigration from Cornwall. And there is a tale that the pasties were made with a savoury filling at one end and a sweet one at the other; the pastry was made deliberately tough as it was not meant to be eaten, being there merely to protect the contents from the toxins encountered in the mines.

Michael Wilhelmson · 01-16-2005, 08:53 AM

Just a side note, over in the States we have this horrific hardtack bread that soldiers used to eat before the WWII. If it was eaten by the British in the Great war, Tolkien must obviously have eaten some of this "mineral" and hoped with all his heart for hardtack that was actually nutritional, and somewhat pleasing to the palette. Thus, a tasty, useful waybread.

mark12_30 · 01-17-2005, 02:39 PM

Don't make it with Quinoa flour.

**convulsions**

Neithan · 01-17-2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Just a side note, over in the States we have this horrific hardtack bread that soldiers used to eat before the WWII. If it was eaten by the British in the Great war, Tolkien must obviously have eaten some of this "mineral" and hoped with all his heart for hardtack that was actually nutritional, and somewhat pleasing to the palette. Thus, a tasty, useful waybread.

Yes, I thought of hardtack when Gimli talked about Cram. You might say that Lembas is the Elvish version of Cram, or more likely that Cram is a failed attempt to copy Lembas.

01-14-2005, 02:13 AM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Lostgaeriel, Hmm... That's fascinating. I'm no Elvish scholar, but the origin of the word 'lembas' is Sindarin, and means journey or waybread. The older form is 'lenn-mbass'. I believe another Quenyan name was 'coimas' or bread of life. My guess is that "lembas" as a word existed before Tolkien wrote the particular scene between Merry and Pippin that you are describing. In that sense, the similar Cornish word wouldn't have had a direct impact on the origin of lembas. However, Tolkien knew a vast number of languages and it's certainly possible he had the Cornish word in the back of his mind as he wrote out that particular passage, hence giving the scene an underlying double meaning. By the way, on my dad's side, I am a "Cousin Jenny" whose family came to the UP of Michigan long years ago to mine copper. I know absolutely no Cornish, but I do make a "mean" pasty and also saffron cake. The story you tell about throwing the pasties down the mine shaft and not having them break....I heard that many times in my childhood (although definitely in English!). If I heard such a tale way across the Atlantic, surely JRRT would have been aware of it, as well as the actual dialect and language that would have been used. Shippey has show how much "word play" there is shot throughout LotR. This could be another instance. But, like you, I can only guess. Perhaps there's someone else who can speak with more certainty on this. I have a Cornish dictionary on mail order. If and when it gets here, I'll have a look at that word to see what it says. I couldn't find anything directly relevent in the Cornish word lists on the internet. Thanks for the reference to that 'pasty book'. I'll try to dig up a copy. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 01-14-2005 at 03:23 AM.

01-14-2005, 08:57 AM	#2
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 477	Thanks Child of the 7th Age! I'm not sure if lembs is actually a Cornish word. Like you, I can't find it in any of the on-line Cornish dictionaries. Perhaps it's a long-out-of-use English word. My mother's family is from Cornwall. I'll be visiting my relatives there in the spring - first time for me. I'll ask them about the word. Rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn. Free Cornwall Now. __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting. Last edited by Lostgaeriel; 01-17-2005 at 10:54 PM.

01-14-2005, 11:17 AM	#3
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Well, I don't know how relevant or helpful this might be but it's what I was able to uncover: lem is a form of the Old English word leam which means, "light, flame; a flash, ray, or gleam of light; brightness, gleam." bas is an archaic (Middle-English, like in Chaucer or Gawain) form of base. In the earliest uses of the word, the moral or social connotations were not at play (that is, people were not of "base" birth, bad behaviour was not considered "base"). Instead, it meant simply that something was low or close to the ground (earth?). So how's this: lem+bas = a gleam of light or flame that is close to the earth? This would make sense insofar as lembas is a form of Elvish magic, but it is also bread: what could be more homey than that? (I just love the Oxford English Dictionary.) __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

01-14-2005, 11:18 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Sindarin I believe is based on Welsh, which I believe is in the same language family as Cornish. So it is not impossible that Tolkien knew this word .. but if he didn't I think he would have been pleased by the coincidence. Ooh saffron cake .... yummy..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-14-2005, 03:38 PM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	In Breton 'bread' is bara, and I think it is the same in Welsh. If Cornish, Welsh and Breton are all of the same family wouldn't the word for bread be similar? Correct me if I'm wrong! Lembs could be some kind of dialect word (drawn no doubt from the Cornish language) for 'bits'. As an aside, I read in Bill Bryson's The Lost Continent that he was travelling through a quite desolate part of Michigan when he saw a sign advertising Cornish Pasties and intrigued had to go and find out more. It is obviously an area with a history of immigration from Cornwall. And there is a tale that the pasties were made with a savoury filling at one end and a sweet one at the other; the pastry was made deliberately tough as it was not meant to be eaten, being there merely to protect the contents from the toxins encountered in the mines. __________________ Gordon's alive!

01-16-2005, 08:53 AM	#6
Michael Wilhelmson Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: IL Posts: 16	Just a side note, over in the States we have this horrific hardtack bread that soldiers used to eat before the WWII. If it was eaten by the British in the Great war, Tolkien must obviously have eaten some of this "mineral" and hoped with all his heart for hardtack that was actually nutritional, and somewhat pleasing to the palette. Thus, a tasty, useful waybread. __________________ Horseman of the plains

01-17-2005, 02:39 PM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Don't make it with Quinoa flour. convulsions __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.