What if... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lenwe · 01-23-2004, 06:38 PM

Smaug survived till the battle of pelannor fields and the balrog ,and during the battle of pelannor fields the balrog attacked Lorien from right side, and smaug from top and a army of orcs from Dol Guldor attack Lorien from the right side?

Lord of Angmar · 01-23-2004, 06:50 PM

If that had happened, then The Lord of the Rings would have been a very different book, but ultimately it would not have mattered because Frodo would have destroyed the Ring and the war would still be won by the good guys (that is, assuming that Smaug and the balrog did not kill Frodo at some point).

-Angmar

Lenwe · 01-23-2004, 06:54 PM

If that happened lets says smaug goes back to erebor and the balrog goes back to Moria.And Gandalf and all the elves Leave to the undying lands.Could the men take on the Balrog and Smaug during the night.Lets say they attack rohan first.

Knight of Gondor · 01-23-2004, 08:54 PM

Well, since Tolkien was in control, he didn't let that happen... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lolidir · 01-12-2005, 09:06 PM

first of all Gandalf killed the balrog. assuming that the balrog lived that would mean that Gandalf would have died, and there was no way that that was going to happen, so that takes care of the balrog. as for Smaug. it is hard to say how thing would have happened. i think that is Snaug were to have survived Laketown and everything things would have ended there. if you go back to The Hobbit and look it states that the dwarves and Bilbo were trapped in the tunnel and if Smaug was to survive they wouldnt have been able to escape. so there you have it. you wouldnt have had LOTR if Smaug was to survive.

i must agree with Knight of Gondor. Tolkien was writing the book and he didnt let that happen. if he did only he would know where he was going to go with the story.

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-12-2005, 09:35 PM

Yes, And "if Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save" Lorien. But Tolkien must have something (plot) to work on.

Boromir88 · 01-13-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

first of all Gandalf killed the balrog. assuming that the balrog lived that would mean that Gandalf would have died, and there was no way that that was going to happen, so that takes care of the balrog.

Gandalf did die.

As for if it attacked Lorien. Hmm, I would say Galadriel would be able to defeat it, but I don't know if she would risk it or not. Since, you can't kill a balrog without sacrificing your own life (atleast telling from the history of Balrog slayings). I wonder if Elrond would have sent Glorfindel to do the dirty work, because I don't really even see Celeborn defeating the Balrog.

I don't see any reason why the Balrog would get the sudden urge to attack Lorien, but it is an interesting what if question.

Gurthang · 01-13-2005, 05:39 PM

Spending time on 'what ifs' is pretty much a waste, but, hey, needless speculation is really fun sometimes.

Well, Lothlorien had a lot of archers, and considering they were probably as good or better than Bard, Smaug would have been shot down pretty quickly. The Balrog would have been a bit more trouble, but the elves could swarm if they had to.

The newscast would be like this:

Dan Rathelf: "It's nothing like I've ever seen! I'm seeing a mad herd of elves trampling over a Balrog. And this just in, over at Pelennor Fields, we're receiving a report that at this same instant there is an army of undead warriors swarming a Mumakul! What a coincidence! This could be just the thing to change the outcome of these battles."

And that just leaves a bunch of pansy orcs to deal with. Childsplay!

Boromir88 · 01-13-2005, 05:47 PM

They wouldn't be able to simply over-run the Balrog because of their numbers. Their weapons would have been no use (remember Aragorn and Boromir trying to join Gandalf in the fight, they wouldn't have been able to do anything). It would take someone like Gandalf, or a powerful elf lord/lady like Glorfindel, Galadriel, or possibly Elrond.

01-13-2005, 06:25 PM

And then let's say that all the orcs mutated into trolls and went on a rampage! (Just kidding

)
Perhaps there... *quits posting*

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-13-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Well, Lothlorien had a lot of archers, and considering they were probably as good or better than Bard, Smaug would have been shot down pretty quickly.

Did they also have a burglar to get close to Smaug and find out his weak spot?

I suppose they had Elven sight. But I still think that you are selling Smaug rather short, particularly given that the assumption here seems to be that he is part of a marauding force, rather than a sole attacker.

Formendacil · 01-13-2005, 09:54 PM

Well, I suppose Galadriel could always dig Radagast up, since he lives nearby, then put the fear of, well, herself on him to do his darndest...

The Balrog WOULD be worn out from Gandalf-fighting, but I still wouldn't put his chances of being taken down too high. This is, after all, Radagast...

Still, he would be that much more worn down that Celeborn and a long string of archers (if necessary) could be sent in to finish him off, suicide Glorfindel/Ecthelion style...

All they need is a rock and a high place.

Gurthang · 01-15-2005, 06:51 PM

But if normal swords are no use, then would arrows do any good either? Would any regular weapon harm a Balrog?

Oh, yeah. What if the coming of Smaug and the Balrog started a HUGE forest fire in Lorien? And all the Elves were trapped?! 'Elves: Go directly to Mandos. Do not pass the Grey Havens. Do not get a free ship ride.'

Gil-Galad · 01-15-2005, 07:44 PM

Why would Smaug even attack Lorien? he doesn't know anything about it and doesn't have a bone to pick with them. he'll probaly just head north to the grey mountains or try to retake Erebor, and also the Balrog probaly wouldn't venture outside of Moria too...

Assasin · 01-24-2005, 02:52 PM

If the Balrog lived wouldn't that mean that Gandalf would have to die? And if Gandalf REALLY died, then a lot of other people would die. So if the Balrog was there, it would change a lot of stuff in the story. I definitely agree with Knight of Gondor.

01-23-2004, 06:38 PM	#1
Lenwe Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 29	What if... Smaug survived till the battle of pelannor fields and the balrog ,and during the battle of pelannor fields the balrog attacked Lorien from right side, and smaug from top and a army of orcs from Dol Guldor attack Lorien from the right side?

01-23-2004, 06:50 PM	#2
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	If that had happened, then The Lord of the Rings would have been a very different book, but ultimately it would not have mattered because Frodo would have destroyed the Ring and the war would still be won by the good guys (that is, assuming that Smaug and the balrog did not kill Frodo at some point). -Angmar __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-23-2004, 08:54 PM	#4
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Well, since Tolkien was in control, he didn't let that happen... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

01-12-2005, 09:06 PM	#5
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	first of all Gandalf killed the balrog. assuming that the balrog lived that would mean that Gandalf would have died, and there was no way that that was going to happen, so that takes care of the balrog. as for Smaug. it is hard to say how thing would have happened. i think that is Snaug were to have survived Laketown and everything things would have ended there. if you go back to The Hobbit and look it states that the dwarves and Bilbo were trapped in the tunnel and if Smaug was to survive they wouldnt have been able to escape. so there you have it. you wouldnt have had LOTR if Smaug was to survive. i must agree with Knight of Gondor. Tolkien was writing the book and he didnt let that happen. if he did only he would know where he was going to go with the story. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-12-2005, 09:35 PM	#6
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Yes, And "if Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save" Lorien. But Tolkien must have something (plot) to work on. __________________ Aure Entuluva!

01-23-2004, 06:54 PM	#3
Lenwe Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 29	If that happened lets says smaug goes back to erebor and the balrog goes back to Moria.And Gandalf and all the elves Leave to the undying lands.Could the men take on the Balrog and Smaug during the night.Lets say they attack rohan first.

01-13-2005, 05:39 PM	#8
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Wasting Time... Spending time on 'what ifs' is pretty much a waste, but, hey, needless speculation is really fun sometimes. Well, Lothlorien had a lot of archers, and considering they were probably as good or better than Bard, Smaug would have been shot down pretty quickly. The Balrog would have been a bit more trouble, but the elves could swarm if they had to. The newscast would be like this: Dan Rathelf: "It's nothing like I've ever seen! I'm seeing a mad herd of elves trampling over a Balrog. And this just in, over at Pelennor Fields, we're receiving a report that at this same instant there is an army of undead warriors swarming a Mumakul! What a coincidence! This could be just the thing to change the outcome of these battles." And that just leaves a bunch of pansy orcs to deal with. Childsplay! __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-13-2005, 05:47 PM	#9
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	They wouldn't be able to simply over-run the Balrog because of their numbers. Their weapons would have been no use (remember Aragorn and Boromir trying to join Gandalf in the fight, they wouldn't have been able to do anything). It would take someone like Gandalf, or a powerful elf lord/lady like Glorfindel, Galadriel, or possibly Elrond.

01-13-2005, 06:25 PM	#10
Maura Guest Posts: n/a	Another what if... And then let's say that all the orcs mutated into trolls and went on a rampage! (Just kidding ) Perhaps there... quits posting

01-13-2005, 09:54 PM	#12
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Well, I suppose Galadriel could always dig Radagast up, since he lives nearby, then put the fear of, well, herself on him to do his darndest... The Balrog WOULD be worn out from Gandalf-fighting, but I still wouldn't put his chances of being taken down too high. This is, after all, Radagast... Still, he would be that much more worn down that Celeborn and a long string of archers (if necessary) could be sent in to finish him off, suicide Glorfindel/Ecthelion style... All they need is a rock and a high place. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

01-15-2005, 06:51 PM	#13
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	But if normal swords are no use, then would arrows do any good either? Would any regular weapon harm a Balrog? Oh, yeah. What if the coming of Smaug and the Balrog started a HUGE forest fire in Lorien? And all the Elves were trapped?! 'Elves: Go directly to Mandos. Do not pass the Grey Havens. Do not get a free ship ride.' __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-15-2005, 07:44 PM	#14
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Why would Smaug even attack Lorien? he doesn't know anything about it and doesn't have a bone to pick with them. he'll probaly just head north to the grey mountains or try to retake Erebor, and also the Balrog probaly wouldn't venture outside of Moria too... __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

01-24-2005, 02:52 PM	#15
Assasin Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a desert. Posts: 142	If the Balrog lived wouldn't that mean that Gandalf would have to die? And if Gandalf REALLY died, then a lot of other people would die. So if the Balrog was there, it would change a lot of stuff in the story. I definitely agree with Knight of Gondor.