Prisoner of Númenor Planning/Discussion Thread

[Regin Hardhammer]

First of all, could you give me clarification on "Almaida". I checked The Encyclopedia of Arda, Fonstad's Atlas, and the indexes to Silm and UT. I didn't find it. When I searched on google under Almaida and Numenor, I brought up only three references: two were back to this very thread and one was to a website that mentioned UT, but I still couldn't find the term in UT. Could someone give me a clue? Are we talking about a haven in the western part of the isle?

Wouldn't a group based in the west of Numenor have to have a reason to be there? I assume it would have been particularly dangerous not to go east with the rest of the faithful. Perhaps, even though Amandil never returned, there was still some distant hope that the Elves would send ships to help the faithful. Could our purpose have been to wait and watch for them?

I was thinking of having my character be in the employment of Elendil, a shipowner bringing supplies to the remnant of the faithful left in the west on a small, sleek schooner, perhaps unloading the goods in some secluded cove. My character could also bring news of Elendil's intended departure and the prisoner's capture, or that could be left fo some other character to do. In any case, I could ditch my ship once I realized the group had to go over land to save the prisoner. Would this work with what is being planned?


I am finding it difficult to develop a character until I know why a remnant of the faithful stayed in the west and what the plot will be. I have come up with some names, but I'm not sure about the cases and/or grammar. I would appreciate if anyone else is an expert in Adunaic and/or Sindarin to provide grammatical help.

I chose the first name in Adunaic, Azarmanô, which means azar- the old form of star. Manô means spirit. The closest Sindarin name would be Elkhor. El means star and khor means fiery spirit.

My last name will be Hazadbawîba. What a mouthful! This means seven winds that refers to my family's nautical ties. In Sindaran this is Wawaotok. Believe it or not. Hopefully I won't have to use the last names too much!

If anybody has any suggestions about any of this I am open to them.

- Regin

[littlemanpoet]

I like the idea of Vinyalonde, although Dol Amroth seemed pretty cool to me.

Silmarien was born in S.A. 521. Aldarion was born in S.A. 700. That's 179 years later. Two generations. But you're talking about his daughter, Tar-Ancalimë, his eldest daughter, first Queen by law of Numenor. That would leave the Melethroch in the line of Elros - at least a little longer - which is okay. But maybe the Melethroch clan should be descended from one of Tar-Surion's two sisters, who were both older than he, and refused the sceptre. That would make the Melethroch clan extant as of, say, S.A. 1394, when Surion took the sceptre and by which time his sisters were probably wed to some likely Numenorean man.

Andunié? Not Armenolos? Okay. I thought that if we were some secret clan that was actually trying to make a difference we would have to be well hidden in the seat of governance itself, but maybe your thought was otherwise?

Group title? A rep from Sophia? Woo hoo!

"Nimruzîrim" = "Elf-friends" - but that's probably a bit too obvious.
Balakzir = Ship lovers - too common
Bawabzir = Wind lovers - maybe just as common
huzun = ears
hazad = seven
Hazadhuzun? = The Seven Ears? (chuckle)

Abanaparu's physical description:

6'8". Which is probably just a little humble for a Numenorean. Oh well. (I thought of Aragorn as 6'6" when I first read LotR). Raven black hair, clear face, long nose but not too long. Not too full lips. High cheek bones. Lean but not thin. Grey eyes. His war and hunting weapon is the bow. He keeps a long knife with him, an ancestral one with a silver hilt. Its blade is straight and slender but strong.

Regin, the Numenorean handles are mouthfuls on purpose. The Sindarin would be - ah - not altered but - let's say, refined - to sound pleasing to the Elvish (or Mannish) ear.

[Regin Hardhammer]

The Sindarin would be - ah - not altered but - let's say, refined - to sound pleasing to the Elvish (or Mannish) ear.

Littlemanpoet --

Whoops! How about if I trade in "Wawaotok" for "Liwaiwa" that can mean "Many Winds"? It sounds a bit more graceful than the other I came up with.

I think I can live with Elkhor. It doesn't sound that different than Elrond.

I hope this is an improvement.

****************

Sophia

We cross posted. Many thanks to you and Pio the Loremaster. I didn't check the footnotes in UT!

I'll start trying to work on my profile.

[littlemanpoet]

Resident Linguist? Me?!? I know next to nothing about the grammar of Sindarin or Adúnaic. I just go by what the websites I found tell me, what sounds good to the ear, and what rolls of the tongue - - more or less - -

Well, Regin, that's an alteration instead of a refinement. It's up to you, of course.

This is Sindarin according to the site I use; take a look
here

many = limb
wind = gwae, thúl; plural would be: thyl

Many winds: Limbethyl. I stuck an "e" in the middle because it rolls off the tongue better that way. I don't know if I have any right to do that, but I just go by feel.

Where did you get "Wawaotok" and "Liwaiwa" from?

[piosenniel]

I think Regin may have been looking at a word etymology list, possibly the one at the Ardalambion site. The etymology lists there give the more archaic forms of a word from which the final language developed.

Why don't we all agree to use this site (It's the one lmp is using): Sindarin/Quenyan

It's simple enough without having to go through the headache of trying to download the Sindarin Dictionary (often is seen as a corrupted file by different computers and won't open) or buying the Sindarin Dictionary disc in English/Polish translation.

Ardalambion does have a fuller explanation of plurals and other parts of Sindarin for those who like to delve a little deeper. Unfortunately, it offers no wordlists as it does for Quenyan.

How does this sound?

~*~ Pio

[Regin Hardhammer]

I used the Aradalambion Index to Etymologies by English Glosses, and then double checked it in HoMe, V, The Lost Road, which is Tolkien's original list. You can get to this on-line list by clicking here, then scroll down the page and click on Index to Etymologies by English glosses.... From there you click on index, and it will take you to the alphabet where you click on the letter you want for a particular English word. Once you know the Elvish stem you want, however, it's actually much easier to refer to HoMe.

The Index to Etymologies and LR shows the base stem that Tolkien used to develop the word; Lost Road also lists a number of the words that Tolkien later developed from that base stem. Like you, I am willing to "refine" a bit, sometimes using the stem and sometimes the later words, according to what I like best, especially since these are names. Names tend to incorporate archaic forms and stems as well as literal words.

The "gwae" that you cite, for example, is actually a variant of the one I used in both Wawaotok and Liwaiwa . The original stem for "blow" is "wa-, wawa-, waiwa". This same stem is used in Quenyan, Sindarin, and Ilkorin to form the word wind. "Gwaew" is the more common usage for wind in Sindarin; "waiwa" is used in Quenyan. In this case I preferred the Sindarin stem, which also happens to be a Quenyan word.

The same is true of your word "limb". This is actually a variant of my "Li". The stem for "many" in both Sindarin and Quenyan is "li". Later forms Tolkien listed include "li" (Q), "lin" (S) and "lim" (S) (actually blended with rim), usually at the end of words. I took the stem and used it at the beginning of the word.

Ot, Otos, Otok is similarly a stem for Sindarin and Quenyan for seven. Odog is a later Sindarin word. I didn't like the sound of "odog". I had visions of running in circles and barking!

(I believe your term "thul" actually means breath and is from the root "thu" that means puff or blow.)

If using the original stem is a problem, I will be happy to go back and look at the forms again and come up with something else, using only the later words.

[Regin Hardhammer]

I just cross posted with Pio. I will go back and use the other list and come up with a different name.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Resident Linguist? Me?!?

Well, you do seem far more adept at naming than me... heck, I pulled "Kathaani" off the name generator and then translated it. I was lucky that I got something that actually translated.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Regin-

About Almaida:

Although descriptive rather than narrative, I have included selections from my father's account of Númenor, more especially as it concerns the physical nature of the Island, since it clarifies and naturally accompanies the tale of Aldarion and Erendis. This account was certainly in existence by 1965, and was probably written not long before that.

I have redrawn the map from a little rapid sketch, the only one, as it appears, that my father ever made of Númenor. Only names or features found on the original have been entered on the redrawing. In addition, the original shows another haven on the Bay of Andúnië, not far to the westward of Andúnië itself; the name is hard to read, but is almost certainly Almaida. This does not, so far as I am aware, occur elsewhere.

-From the Footnotes of the Unfinished Tales, quote courtesy of Pio the Loremaster

I don't think that we're going to actually use Almaida. It seems that Andunie will work just as well. As far as the reason we have remained behind, I think your idea works very well, Regin. If the Faithful were (not exactly expecting, but...) hopeful that there would be aid coming from Eressea or Valinor then it would be sensible for them to have left a token "welcoming committee" so to speak.

Any major objections? If not, I think we can take that as our reason... do you have any brilliant ideas about names for the group?

I love your names too. Particularly the idea that your family name means "seven winds" Littlemanpoet is the one to ask about names. He seems to be our resident linguist. I'm not so good, myself.

I'm going to give you guys a taste of some of the family connections building. My brother (in RL) TomBrady12 is building a character that more than likely will function as Kathaani's protector and who will be a relative of some kind. This is the pm from him where he briefly describes his character:

I was thinking that maybe his father might have been a kind of high profile member of the faithful, who was captured and sacrificed to Melkor. He was kinda scared by this and spent a number of years in middle earth, basically wandering and looing for solitude, before returning and he ends up joining the faithful not terribly long before this takes place (year or two). does this sound workable, im certainly open to any suggestions, ideas, or help.

Just so you guys get a taste of what's going on behind the scenes.

Sophia