And Eru Smiled

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Does this wilful act of rebellion put an end to the 'free will' so that, as in the case of Melkor, the rebel can no longer act out of goodness, and is utterly controlled by evil? (SoN)

Well, I think Melkor's consummate fall is not judgment, but foresight. There’s a part in the Gospels where Jesus addresses a group of Pharisees, saying that they could never be saved (or something like that . . . I don’t have exact quotes): I think it’s not that they can’t be saved, but they refuse to. Same as Melkor, perhaps. He is still of Eru. He could be saved. Unfortunately, he’s so consumed with what he wants that he forgot that.

Or perhaps he just no longer comprehends good—cf. Manwë not comprehending evil.

You said "Melkor", Noldo. Noldor don't say that.

Oops.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilp

Does this wilful act of rebellion put an end to the 'free will' so that, as in the case of Melkor, the rebel can no longer act out of goodness, and is utterly controlled by evil? (SoN)

In the case of Sauron, he has always had the will to refuse Morgoth and remain on the side of the Valar. But he chose power and dominion as Sauron's servant over being "just like everyone else" as a faithful Maia. When Morgoth was overthrown, he chose to continue what his master has begun in him, and he has never been able to retract his steps from the path of evil.

Does this mean that once you become evil, you become evil forever with no hope of redemption? Not so! Sauron had the chance to turn his back from Morgoth's ways and be reaccepted by the Valar, only he has been in too deep with his rebellion that he cannot escape. It's something like what they say about giving the devil a foothold in your heart; once he has stepped in through the door, it would be very difficult to drive him away again. Sauron could return to good if he really wanted to, if he tried his best to get rid of Morgoth's lies and ask for the Valar's pardon (and, perhaps, "salvation"). But he found it too much of an effort, and considered his old ways to be the "easier" road.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually, Sauron seems to have had a genuine (if shallow) repentence
after the War of Wrath.

When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West.

==========================
And having just rewatched the movie "Death on the Nile",
the French detective, Poirot, advises the chief planner of the convoluted murder plot:
"Do not let evil into your heart, it will make a home there."

[Iarwain]

I'm surprised at myself and all the others who posted on this thread. I was wandering (as always), and I returned here, to reread my original post. At the beginning, I was fine with what I said, but after getting about halfway through I became somewhat disgusted with myself for making an amazingly reckless statement and failing utterly to back it up.

I said "In the end, we could probably argue (and we will) that all existence is a part of Eru himself." Why should this be? In fact, I disagree with my last-year self and propose that such a statement is foolish to the extreme.

Why?

Eru, however ethical and good, is undeniably lacking in a physical Middle-Earthian presence. In fact, the only instance I can give of actually participating within Arda is in the destruction of Numenor. If everything and everyone within TCE is a PART of Eru, somehow I think he would be more involved.

Iarwain

[littlemanpoet]

On the other hand, I have heard it said once that the entire universe is a figment of the imagination of Eru/God. Which makes it no less real, of course! But of course that's not exactly what you're correcting yourself about.

Perhaps Eru was more involved than it at first seems upon one reading. How many times in all the legendarium isn't there a reference to something "meant to be"? The workings of Eru would, I can imagine, be most subtle and quite invisible to his creatures, even those storied beings in Valinor.

So maybe Eru is passive, or maybe he only seems that way.

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

So maybe Eru is passive, or maybe he only seems that way.

Or maybe He's just lazy - as Treebeard says 'Its easier to shout 'Stop!' than to do it'.....

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Or maybe He's just lazy - as Treebeard says 'Its easier to shout 'Stop!' than to do it'.....

I realise that this was probably intended in jest, but to take it in a serius direction...

If one assumes that Eru = God (of Catholics,etc), then when Eru says "Stop", it must happen. As in creation, "God said, "let there be light," and there was light", etc, etc.

In any case, Eru having been the one to direct the Music that caused Arda, and having been the One to call it into being, and having been the sole creator of the Children of Eru, I think it unlikely that he played NO part in the workings of Arda. I would agree that, if Arda is part of his thought, however, that his workings would be very subtle, being the workings of Arda, Time, and Fate, and as inexplicable to the Ainur as to his lesser children.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Iarwain

I said "In the end, we could probably argue (and we will) that all existence is a part of Eru himself." Why should this be? In fact, I disagree with my last-year self and propose that such a statement is foolish to the extreme.

Why?

Eru, however ethical and good, is undeniably lacking in a physical Middle-Earthian presence. In fact, the only instance I can give of actually participating within Arda is in the destruction of Numenor. If everything and everyone within TCE is a PART of Eru, somehow I think he would be more involved.

Iarwain, please accept my humble apologies for leading this thread on that wild tangent that got mixed in from another thread and would have done well to stay there.

I think that you are correct that "all existence" is not "a part of Eru". There's simply no evidence for it in the Legendarium, and much against it.

Maybe, fellow dead, we could reserve comments on "broken enchantment", "werewolves", "the movie sucked", or whatever, for threads more appropriate to those topics, and leave discussions of Eru on this one. Sound good? Just a suggestion.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

Even an athiest, if they weren't too 'militant' could accept Eru within Middle earth

Well, thank you, I believe I will.

Seriously, I think that unless an author is using his or her story as a veiled platform for some specific political or philosophical message, a wide variety of readers who do not share all the beliefs treated as premises in the story can nonetheless enjoy it. Indeed, if this were not true to some extent, then we could not "suspend disbelief" and accept such trappings of Tolkien's world as Elves, magic, etc. For me, accepting the existence of Eru is no different at all from accepting the existence of Gandalf.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I'm going to go back to explaining WHAT I was saying...

Let's imagine that I decide to write a political thriller, set in Washington D.C. of the present day. It will be based around my fictional hero, but because this is a politics-related story, there will be quite a few real life people in there. Naturally, there will be the President of the United States (Reagen, Bush, Clinton, Bush II, whoever...). He will have, in the book, as much of the "real" President's personality, power, and style as I am capable of putting into the book.

So someone comes along, reads my book, and makes an assumption about a plot thread based on what is known about the "real" President.

Is this assumption justified or not?



So, you see where I'm going? Although Eru can/should stand on His own in Arda, and should not need a translation for readers without a Christian background, it should be permissible for a reader who IS familiar with the Christian God, whom Eru is intended to be a "book translation" of, to assume that he will have all the personality, power, and style of the "real" God.

And while this understanding/belief is not necessary for understanding Eru and His role in the story, it should clarify for the curious reader how Tolkien (the "real" final arbiter of Arda) viewed Eru, and what powers Eru had.

As I recall, my original point was that Eru had the same powers (exercised or no) in Arda as God does in our world (according to Christian religion).