LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 07 - Helm's Deep

[Lathriel]

The Idea of the metaphors is very interesting because I never thought of it that way.

As soon as I begin to read LOTR I am in ME and I never question these things. I just take everything Tolkien writes as it is. If he says the sword of the Nazgul is surrounded by flame I picture that way.

For me it is not difficult to do this because I seperate myself from the real world and am completely submerged in the fantasy world. Of course this is really easy with ME.

As has been said before there is an almost historical feel to LOTR. This is why I even believe that Legolas and Gimli were able to kill so many orcs. I just don't think about the possible and inpossible anymore. Especially with this Chapter Helm's deep. the description of it all is so accurate I don't question it.

This is just one of the chapters that shows that LOTR is a master piece because I just believe everything.

[Lhunardawen]

With Gandalf again gone, Aragorn is subject to his second test in preparation for his kingship. First, he builds more on his relationship with Eomer and Theoden, to strengthen the ties of alliance between Gondor and Rohan in the future. Yes, Aragorn has been in Rohan before, serving under Thengel, Theoden's father (oh my, I actually forgot his name then!) - but now this is a different king, and a more dangerous time. It is also in Aragorn's fighting alongside the Rohirrim that Gondor somehow aids Rohan in its war.

Also, just before this chapter, it is usually Gandalf who speaks to Theoden while the others just listen on. Now it is Aragorn's turn to do the conversing.

Secondly, this is his chance to "practice" for the larger battle that is to come. Anduril has been sheathed for so long, and here it gets to do its thing again. Ditto for Gimli's ax and Legolas' bow and knife.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I don’t think this is that incredible.

Húrin’s killing of seventy trolls (or a hundred Orcs) I find more incredible, him being all alone, and all. But remember, Morgoth said that Húrin should be taken alive, and this is the greatest warrior of Men. Now that I think of it, it becomes less and less incredible.

Now, we turn to the Helm’s Deep non-Men. Remember, they were in a protected place, supported by war-worthy Men.

Legolas uses a bow, a long-range weapon. With his first salvo he killed twenty. I think his quiver would have held that much. Then he killed four with knife-work. Well, he was almost surely supported by the knives of Rohirrim archers—probably with some Rohirrim swordsmen. Then we don’t hear of any more kills until he reached thirty-nine, when he sent the first Orc behind Aragorn to the Void. Before that he was perhaps obtaining arrows shot by the Orcs at them—after all, they are of almost the same size as his Galadhrim-issue. His last two kills may be arrows gleaned the same way, or less probably, knife.

Now we turn to Gimli. His first two kills was recorded. Nothing incredible about that. Then he kills nineteen after the first breakthrough via the culvert. But in this attack he was supported by Gamling and the Men of Westfold. Then we never hear of him again until he killed twenty-one more Orcs when he retreated to Aglarond. He was supported by, of all the people, Éomer, plus some other Men. And they were in a cave, with Rohirrim as guides. Surely they would have contrived an ambush of some sort. That should be enough to account for his last kills.

I say again, it’s not that incredible.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is surprising, given that this was my favourite Chapter when I first read the book, that I have relatively little to say on it.

As far as the depiction of the battle is concerned, I do think that Aiwendil hit the nail on the head when he described it as a series of linked dramatic events (see his post #6 above). It is portrayed as a series of incidents, each involving the principal characters, linked by a general description of the battle's progress, in particular the development of the Orcs' assault. It struck me that this is similar to the way that a battle might be portrayed on film - as a series of encounters/incidents linked by overview shots of the battle. Tolkien's skill as a story-teller enables him to deploy this technique to marvellous effect in this Chapter.

Another theme that links the events of the battle, and indeed of the entire Chapter, and also parallels them is the weather. Rather than blathering on at length here about this, I will simply provide this link to my post on The Symbolic Significance of Weather.

Originally Posted by Fordim

... there is just no way that one fighter can be so overwhelmingly good that he can wipe out that many opponents. And certainly not two: either the orcs are incompetent or Gimli and Legolas are getting a bit of 'help' from the author.

Well, as others have noted, this is in keeping of the deeds of the great warriors of legend and myth. But I also think that an argument can be made out for its feasibility. It is entirely credible that Legolas would score 20 kills with his bow - 1 for each arrow in his quiver. It does require that he delivers a fatal wound with every shot, but then he is an elf. He could then easily score a further 21 kills with his knives (as a nimble and lightly armoured Elf he has an advantage over Orcs in hand-to-hand combat) and with the arrows that he picks up on the field of battle. As for Gimli, he gets his chance when the Orcs break through and later in the Deep and the caves. I see no reason why he should not be able, on occasion, to kill 2 or 3 at a time with his axe, requiring only about 20 swings of it. He is less dextrous than Legolas, although more heavily armoured, but he would have had an advantage over Orcs "in the narrows" of the Deep. Theoden says that none can force an entrance there against determined men, so it clearly had impressive defensive capabilities. All-in-all, I don't see why skilled warriors such as Legolas and Gimli should not achieve the totals that they do against the likes of Orcs. And anyway, I like their "keeping tally", so there.

Finally, this Chapter contains one of the most (unintentionally) funny lines in the book:

Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.

I wonder who was driving?