The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
Old 01-28-2005, 04:32 PM   #18
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
So even if in desperation ‘the West’ had bred or hired hordes of orcs and had cruelly ravaged the lands of other Men as allies of Sauron, or merely to prevent them from aiding him, their Cause would have remained indefeasibly right.
Well, the cause might have, but could it still be said to be their cause? Wouldn't they have deserted the cause by employing the enemy's tactics. Effectively Eru's cause would have no-one to support it. In short, I think Tolkien is wrong. He's effectively saying the end justifies the means, when in fact the 'end' is always determined by the means used.

No, it doesn't work - chiefly because its impossible to imagine Gandalf, Aragorn or Elrond, et al, even contemplating such an act, let alone carrying it through. In fact, I think Gandalf, Aragorn or Elrond could easily pull apart Tolkien's argument here.

Tolkien seems to be saying that, in the last resort, anything is permissible in order to defeat Evil. So, why not take the Ring & use that - if it was the last hope of defeating Sauron? Or are we to believe that only the Ring itself can totally corrupt an individual?

What Tolkien is advocating here is simply wrong, & goes against the whole philosophy of LotR. One cannot use the enemy's means without becoming like the enemy.

Abu Ghraib anyone?

The Ring is an extreme case, not a unique one. If it was unique then LotR would not have such resonances for us. I can't help feeling Tolkien has fallen into his own trap here. Or more precisely the trap he exposed for his characters. If the West had used Sauron's methods they would have sacrificed their values & moral superiority, & become 'Sauron'. To have refused to use the Ring for fear of becoming a 'monster' like Sauron but to have behaved in every other way as if they had taken & used it, would have been the height of hypocrisy, to say the least.

The reason they are in the right is that they didn't ever take the course that Tolkien is attempting to justify here. They would never have considered it. If they had considered it they would have been too vulnerable to the lure of the Ring & so 'their' cause would have had no chance of success. In short, they wouldn't have done such a thing because they didn't think that way.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
 


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:16 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.