None that can hurt him? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gil-Galad · 01-29-2005, 09:39 PM

i actually agree with you there, but my theory on how it can hurt sauron is because after saurons original body died along with the fall of Numernore, Sauron became a lesser Maia, and with his "death" he lost his invulnerability

Lolidir · 01-29-2005, 09:59 PM

honestly i havent gotten around to reading the other books like The Silmarillion and some of the other history books ( i know it is a crime, but i have school books to read, what can i say) and since i havent read those others i dont know to much about anything. but i would have to agree with you on that one. which in that case is the reason that it hurts him. and it doesnt hurt the Nazgul because they are wraiths.

Fingolfin II · 01-30-2005, 12:26 AM

Some good ideas here, thanks for the replies! I'm probably more inclined to agree with Lhuna, though Heren's theory strikes well to me also. Either way, I'm sure we all agree that he couldn't be hurt by Anduril

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lolidir

and it doesnt hurt the Nazgul because they are wraiths.

Nay, Merry's sword (forged by the Men of Numenor) and Eowyn's sword were able to pierce the King of the Nazgul. Thus, it stands to reason that Anduril could also, being a sword of greater potency.

Lolidir · 01-30-2005, 09:36 AM

true. I guess i wasnt thinking straight last night. i guess it all goes back to who wields it and who strikes the Nazgul. that whole "no man can kill me"

Finwe-89 · 01-30-2005, 02:12 PM

Well, I think Gandalf can't die again, since he has been send back. Cause he had a task to fulfill so I think the Valar made him immortal untill he fulfilled his task,cause I don't think Valar wants to take any risk that Gandalf dies again.

Assasin · 01-31-2005, 12:53 AM

Exactly. I'm glad YOU grasp the concept.

ohtatyaro · 01-31-2005, 02:14 AM

Quote:

I'm glad YOU grasp the concept.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced

I mean, if a person has a body, and body is made outta matter, and matter being destructible - surely there is a possibility of destroying it, than?

See:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf at the Last Debate

We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dûr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless - as we surely shall, if we sit here - and know as we die that no new age shall be.’

I doubt Gandalf was so cruel as to have second thougts, I mean, cackling and giggling in his mind along the lines as you surely shall, if we sit here - and know as you persih blah-blah-blah. I mean, it's just not a way Tolkien good guy would do.

Formendacil · 01-31-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finwe-89

Well, I think Gandalf can't die again, since he has been send back. Cause he had a task to fulfill so I think the Valar made him immortal untill he fulfilled his task,cause I don't think Valar wants to take any risk that Gandalf dies again.

Didn't he have a task to fulfill BEFORE he died?

And Gandalf as sent back is merely an "enhanced" Gandalf. He has more authority, he is more able to unveil his power, but he remains a Maia in human form, hence he is still subject to death. Of course, the mere fact that he is more able to use his powers and skills means that the chances of anyone actually being skilled enough or clever enough or whatnot to actually hurt or kill him are pretty slim, but I do NOT think that Gandalf was unkillable.

02-01-2005, 02:05 AM

I strongly agree with Formendacil! When the Ainur made the Music for Eru certain events where set in time and space before they actually came into being, right? The Valar remember the vision of Eru (especially Mandos, proclaimer of Doom). Some things are therefore Doom, unchangeable, like the fact the Witch King could not be killed by any man. Gandalf was given a task to fulfill, whether to victory or defeat. Gandalf knew this because he had been sent back to complete his task, with the knowledge and blessing of the Valar. Therefore he knew that it was not in his “doom” to die at the hand of a friend, he would ride out as the white rider against the Nine, and he would break the power of Saruman the Treacherous before he would come to the blessed relm again. For this reason no weapon held by a friend would hurt him.

All this is however theory, and I have no textual quotes to back me up, other then the general pattern of Doom and Fulfillment through out JRRT's work.

Finwe-89 · 02-01-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Didn't he have a task to fulfill BEFORE he died?

And Gandalf as sent back is merely an "enhanced" Gandalf. He has more authority, he is more able to unveil his power, but he remains a Maia in human form, hence he is still subject to death. Of course, the mere fact that he is more able to use his powers and skills means that the chances of anyone actually being skilled enough or clever enough or whatnot to actually hurt or kill him are pretty slim, but I do NOT think that Gandalf was unkillable.

I think that the Valar thought Gandalf couldn't die cause of his power, but when he did, they made him immortal. And if he get's a arrow orsomething in his body, I think he can regerate him self

01-29-2005, 09:39 PM	#1
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	i actually agree with you there, but my theory on how it can hurt sauron is because after saurons original body died along with the fall of Numernore, Sauron became a lesser Maia, and with his "death" he lost his invulnerability __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

01-29-2005, 09:59 PM	#2
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	honestly i havent gotten around to reading the other books like The Silmarillion and some of the other history books ( i know it is a crime, but i have school books to read, what can i say) and since i havent read those others i dont know to much about anything. but i would have to agree with you on that one. which in that case is the reason that it hurts him. and it doesnt hurt the Nazgul because they are wraiths. __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-30-2005, 09:36 AM	#4
Lolidir Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth Posts: 103	true. I guess i wasnt thinking straight last night. i guess it all goes back to who wields it and who strikes the Nazgul. that whole "no man can kill me" __________________ "Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"

01-30-2005, 02:12 PM	#5
Finwe-89 Wight Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In Lotholorien, looking in the mirror that shows that there is still hope for life... Posts: 84	Well, I think Gandalf can't die again, since he has been send back. Cause he had a task to fulfill so I think the Valar made him immortal untill he fulfilled his task,cause I don't think Valar wants to take any risk that Gandalf dies again. __________________ Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum- ishi krimpatul... Beware: Don't speak this loud when you're alone in the dark... Unless you really want it... But don't say I didn't warn you...

01-31-2005, 12:53 AM	#6
Assasin Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a desert. Posts: 142	Exactly. I'm glad YOU grasp the concept. __________________ Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain.

02-01-2005, 02:05 AM	#9
Ilmare Guest Posts: n/a	I strongly agree with Formendacil! When the Ainur made the Music for Eru certain events where set in time and space before they actually came into being, right? The Valar remember the vision of Eru (especially Mandos, proclaimer of Doom). Some things are therefore Doom, unchangeable, like the fact the Witch King could not be killed by any man. Gandalf was given a task to fulfill, whether to victory or defeat. Gandalf knew this because he had been sent back to complete his task, with the knowledge and blessing of the Valar. Therefore he knew that it was not in his “doom” to die at the hand of a friend, he would ride out as the white rider against the Nine, and he would break the power of Saruman the Treacherous before he would come to the blessed relm again. For this reason no weapon held by a friend would hurt him. All this is however theory, and I have no textual quotes to back me up, other then the general pattern of Doom and Fulfillment through out JRRT's work.