Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

... and for the umpteenth time, it is not only the breaking of the staff that seems "wrong" but the general helpless and hopeless, too human behaviour of Gandalf that bothers me. What about : "But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something." It doesn't count so much, apparently...

Guinevere, thanks for bringing the thread back to the real issue.

Just think - what if the Witch-King took the extra two seconds needed to slay the helplessly prone Gandalf before the Rohirrim blew their horns (It's well known that Nazgul, like Pavlov's dogs, just *have* to go and see what's up when they hear horns blowing...)? We'd have BBQed Faramir, meaning that PJ could cut the Houses of Healing scene entirely (Eowyn who?), making room for yet another cameo and/or more Legolas-Gimli slapstick. Aragorn doesn't need the White Wizard in the 'Last Debate' nor at the Black Gate. And just what does Gandalf accomplish in the scene with the Mouth of Sauron? Wouldn't that scene have been better if the MoS came out, talked threateningly awhile, and, in Indiana Jones fashion, Aragorn just takes him out? Then Gimli could say something funny...

Gandalf doesn't do much afterwards anyway in ROTK except for helping Aragorn put his crown on correctly ("Do the feathery-looking things go in the front or the back?") and helping Frodo board the Last Ship ("Hi, I'm Gandalf, your ship's Steward...").

I'm surprised PJ kept him around as long as he did.

[Essex]

Gandalf was not powerless. he was afraid, yes, and on the floor. He was a Wizard with powers without his staff. I know that as a reader of the books.

But I ask again, WHY DID TOLKIEN WRITE THE SCENE THE WAY HE DID? BECAUSE THE ROHIRRIM SAVE THE DAY AND SAVE GANDALF FROM A CONFLICT THAT HE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON.

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves? Film goers would have been asking the quesiton, what on earth was that all for? Why did they have that scene? They're about to fight and then the WK leaves. What was the point of it? PJ had to add some dramatic tension into the film with Gandalf in a prone position to have a REASON for the scene. The Rohirrim saved Gandalf. Along with this, they also aided Gandalf in saving the life of Faramir as he was able to go to his aid instead of battling the WK.

As for his staff breaking (which is the main starting point for people's anger on this thread, Alatar), I've explained my reasoning behind it not being that great a deal in the Gandalf's staff thread in the books section.

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves?

Almost every Western I've ever seen suggests a scene like this would work. The WK and Gandalf staring each other down is pretty much equivalent to the scene in every Western were the two gunfighters stare each other down across the main road and the tumbleweed rolls between them.

The scene PJ cut out where the WK reveals himself is equivalent to the part in the gunfight where the gunfighters pull back their coats and show what guns they are packing.

The dramatic tension in such scenes is incredible. The viewer is left wondering when the guns will be drawn and who will be left standing.

In this case, however, the tension is cut when the horns sound and the WK leaves the duel without a gun being fired (or a spell being flung).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves? Film goers would have been asking the quesiton, what on earth was that all for? Why did they have that scene? They're about to fight and then the WK leaves. What was the point of it? PJ had to add some dramatic tension into the film with Gandalf in a prone position to have a REASON for the scene. The Rohirrim saved Gandalf. Along with this, they also aided Gandalf in saving the life of Faramir as he was able to go to his aid instead of battling the WK.

Your assumption is that there are two possibilities for this scene, the one that we saw and another where Gandalf and the Witch-King stare at each other in a 'harsh' manner. I see many other possibilities - my personal favorite (as stated earlier) has Gandalf smiling right before the Rohirrim appear. One could think of many others. The Witch-King could shoot fire from his fiery sword and Gandalf could duck, hide, whatever (sans Staff) or block the same with Staff. Shadowfax could threaten the Fell Beast and Gandalf could try to menace the WK with Glamdring from the flank. What if Gandalf with Staff on Shadowfax have a brief stand-off with the WK, the WK looks like he's going to do something bad, and Gandalf decides to rush him anyway, yet has to withdraw in order to shield Pippin, who got bumped off and was hiding around the corner? Anyway, whatever could have been filmed is a moot point, as you know I'm just not happy with what was filmed (it's my one note I keep tooting ).

Originally Posted by Essex

As for his staff breaking (which is the main starting point for people's anger on this thread, Alatar), I've explained my reasoning behind it not being that great a deal in the Gandalf's staff thread in the books section.

Went there - nice post regarding Gandalf's staff. I posted regarding the same. And note that I equate 'staff-breaking' with 'making Gandalf look weak.' Sorry.

Originally Posted by Essex

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

I always felt that it was Gandalf (and he alone) that prevented any of Sauron's Army (WK included) from entering the city. IMO, it was the WK that blinked and went after the Rohirrim as he saw an enemy that he could handle/hamper. Opinions differ.

And wasn't it Pippin that kept Gandalf from riding after the WK? Not that this has anything to do with the scene in the movie.

And it's been my assumption that the EE DVDs have been for the fans, not for the average movie-goers.

Originally Posted by Essex

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

Agreed. But as I stated earlier, if it weren't for gripes about the movies, we wouldn't be reading anything here, and though I really appreciate the work that PJ et al have done, this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

Note that I appreciate your comments.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. But as I stated earlier, if it weren't for gripes about the movies, we wouldn't be reading anything here, and though I really appreciate the work that PJ et al have done, this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

Rah! Rah!

[The Only Real Estel]

And wasn't it Pippin that kept Gandalf from riding after the WK? Not that this has anything to do with the scene in the movie

Yes & agreed. Yes, Pippin 'kept' Gandalf from riding out by informing him of Faramir's peril, & I agree, it probably doesn't have a lot to do with the movies.

[Essex]

Alatar,

IMO, it was the WK that blinked and went after the Rohirrim as he saw an enemy that he could handle/hamper. Opinions differ.

Here, IMO, we have textual fact that shows this is not the case.

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

He saw victory slipping from his grasp as Tolkien says. Gandalf could wait.

And it's been my assumption that the EE DVDs have been for the fans, not for the average movie-goers.

fair point, they should be more for the book fans as PJ has stated, but just to make them so only rabid fans like us would buy them would be unprofitable.

....this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

I do not do this either. I just take a stand point to defend the films where I see they CAN be defended. Because there needs to be a few of us out there on this website so the vast majority can have someone to argue with. Otherwisse there wouldn't be any point of this movie forum if everyone agreed how bad (or good) the PJ films were all the time.

Snorri, re your point on the standoff I said wouldn't work

Almost every Western I've ever seen suggests a scene like this would work. The WK and Gandalf staring each other down is pretty much equivalent to the scene in every Western were the two gunfighters stare each other down across the main road and the tumbleweed rolls between them.

Yes, but this usually ends up with one killing the other to give the scene some point, doesn't it?

St. Povis. Fair point on Gandalf's origins, but wasn't he sent to Middle-earth in the guise of a man with all his frailities?

PS A lot of posts state the basics of Gandalf is stronger than so and so, so he would have defeated him. This is not always the case. This WHOLE STORY is about the 'weak' beating the 'strong', isn't it? Just because you are stronger doesn't mean you will win every fight. Yes, you'd be favourite, yes, but not certain to win.

[St. Povis]

Yes indeed. But I think that having the sort of mortality he had did not exactly qualify him as frail. None of the Istari were frail, after all. They were given remarkable vigor for their seeming age, which, after all, was much older than they appeared as men. Speculation, of course, but I don;t think that the Istari were 'men' at face value. They were Maiar with the visage of men. True enough about 'strength', and certainly the stress of having to muster the will of the panicked Gondor armies would have taxed an ordinary man, but...Seriously now, how much fear do you think a man who has already crossed death can actually have for another one, easpecially given that he isn't really going to 'die' exdept as a mortal (though exceptioanlly long lived) being? Sauron may very well have been the Maiar equivalent of Morgoth in potency/strength when stood against the other Maiar, but I don't think that could make up for the fact that the Witch King was a man, however influenced, for however long by one of the Nine. Its a tricky exploit, at best, but I think a solid argument.

Again, I see your point from a devil's advocate frame of reference when it comes down to 'strength' in the purest sense of the word. Two equally matched boxers might be able to max out to the same weight equivalent in the bench press, but one might simply have more stamina...tough call as to whose going to win. People compare Gandalf against Saruman, too when thinking this whole issue through, sometimes saying that Saruman gave up too easily. We don;t really know what Gandalf's instructions were, if any, when he was sent back as Gandalf the White. Still it seems fair to say that Saruman/Curumir was a traitor to the Valar and their 'cosmic laws' having fallen in with a cronie of Morgoth, the ultimate traitor to creation; a Tolkein-esque Satanic equivalent. (Not that I want to bring religion into the debate). Who knows what Saruman lost when he and Gandalf had their second confrontation? Even in the books, Saruman was given a sort of open ended death; one which seemd to imply that he could return as the next Adversary, if the cycle of events were to continue as they had since the First Age.

While Morgoth was known to some as the mightiest of the Valar, then I think it is also fair, from the perspective of Strength not neccessarily equalling victory, that it would then be possible for Gandalf to take down Morgoth, something I do not believe to be possible, at least not in a direct confrontation. My all too homo sapien need to order things in any given universe according to an hierarchal structure becomes painfully evident in my argumentative, here, but, I truly believe that Morgoth would have wiped the floor with Gandalf. Even so, I don;t think Gandalf would have cowered before him.

[Essex]

I've just noticed this in the book, when Gandalf has his chat with Denthor:

'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly.

Seems like Denethor thinks the WK is Gandalf's match, and Gandalf doesn't argue!

[St. Povis]

Originally Posted by Essex

But I ask again, WHY DID TOLKIEN WRITE THE SCENE THE WAY HE DID? BECAUSE THE ROHIRRIM SAVE THE DAY AND SAVE GANDALF FROM A CONFLICT THAT HE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON.

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

Now what about the fact that the Witch Kings death was foretold? Just because the 'prophecy states that the witch king will not be slain by man' seems to give him a great deal of arrogance, since he seems to believe that no man 'CAN' kill him. Its a load, if you ask me. I think anyone who has read the books, including the Silmarillion, must know that the Maiar are well and above elfin propehcy, shaping destiny in accordance with their Valar's restrictions. I'm not clear on how people feel about it, but I'm pretty sure a Balrog would waste the Witch King. Not the other way around...separate point, but something to chew on...This says nothing about the fact that Gandalf is not really a 'man' per se, but a semi/demi/quasi divine being sent to middle earth with an agenda of 'minimal interference' to reach the end result.

Now, prophecy means {to myself, among others} that the event of The Witch King's death was 'witnessed' by Glorfindel as an event in time. I sincerely doubt, that, with respect to what Gandalf was, as opposed to what the Witch King was, that prophecy held any real water with Gandalf, who might very well have *chosen* the 'nobler' deed of dying, rather than meddle too deeply in the affairs of men or elves so as to break a great tradition of prophecy in which man and elf alike placed token faith. For the Witch King to sit there and brag that no man can kill him would certainly have provoked an inner laughter, if not a flat out guffaw in the Withered Old Husk's faceless, (and crownless, in the movie) helmet! I've no doubt that Gandalf the Grey might have had some trouble with all nine ringwraiths, but Gandalf the White certainly would not have any trouble dealing with the Witch King and his posturing. Staff or no staff, I don't think that GTW would not have so much as flinched at his presence, much less fallen cowering to the floor, and probably would have laughed IF the staff broke, making some offhand remark about the Tolkein equivalent of Karma getting him back for having broken Saruman's staff. If he were forced to, he would fight the Witch king to a stalemate rather than kill him (which he surely could have done in a blink.) until the *moment* of prophecy, {which many believe he was well aware of}, came to pass. I think that what makes it disappointing is that, given a good once over of Gandalf as Olorin, and his The Hobbit/FOTR personality as a generally care free happy go lucky wizard in the Grey Robes, its just too much for people to let their imaginations create the reality that Gandalf is, for all intents and purposes, an obfuscator of many great secrets. His entire character, as written from Olorin to Gandalf the Grey, to Gandalf the White suggests that he knows an IMMENSE deal more than he lets on to the others "(Yes, it certainly has the 'Ring; of truth to it, etc)", and that, given his personality as Olorin, it probably breaks his heart to have so many solemn duties awaiting him and the people he loves. Almost as if he wants to disbelieve the fortunes he so clearly sees as they draw nearer and nearer.

That's one of the most irritating aspects of filmmaking: The slaughter of a good tale to reach the moonstruck to whom a great many subtleties are lost upon. Its one of the reasons I don't entirely blame Jackson (or the others) for his liberties. Certain things should be left alone, though. I agree with you to some degree, but certainly not in totality. I may very well be entirely wrong.





If that don't bugger all! I got myself wrapped up in this thread again! Curse you Shelob!