The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2005, 01:48 PM   #1
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finwe-89
I think that the Valar thought Gandalf couldn't die cause of his power, but when he did, they made him immortal. And if he get's a arrow orsomething in his body, I think he can regerate him self
As far as an arrow goes, it would have to hit him with the right force in the right place if it was to kill him anyway. Otherwise, he'd just be wounded.

Remember too, that Gandalf's power is still cloaked most of the time. He only unveils his power at truly desperate moments, like when the Nazgul are bearing down on Faramir. And even then, he does no more than drive them off.

Gandalf, were he to completely unveil his power, would have no need of diversions to get Frodo to Mount Doom. The invasion of Mordor would be deadly serious, it would be like the War of Wrath in miniature. Because Gandalf would no longer have any reason to hold back, to only encourage and not command, the War of the Ring would have gone VERY differently.

For these reasons (and those previously mentioned), I am of the solidified opinion that Gandalf was still very "killable" after his return from death. He was just more unlikely to be killed. He had, after all, been enhanced, given more allowance to use his power, and it had taken a Balrog his life to get rid of him the first time. Gandalf would have been beyond the skill of pretty much anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean that he was impossible to kill. He was, after all, still a Maia incarnate.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 01:57 PM   #2
Neurion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Neurion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs
Posts: 258
Neurion has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
As far as an arrow goes, it would have to hit him with the right force in the right place if it was to kill him anyway. Otherwise, he'd just be wounded.

Remember too, that Gandalf's power is still cloaked most of the time. He only unveils his power at truly desperate moments, like when the Nazgul are bearing down on Faramir. And even then, he does no more than drive them off.

Gandalf, were he to completely unveil his power, would have no need of diversions to get Frodo to Mount Doom. The invasion of Mordor would be deadly serious, it would be like the War of Wrath in miniature. Because Gandalf would no longer have any reason to hold back, to only encourage and not command, the War of the Ring would have gone VERY differently.

For these reasons (and those previously mentioned), I am of the solidified opinion that Gandalf was still very "killable" after his return from death. He was just more unlikely to be killed. He had, after all, been enhanced, given more allowance to use his power, and it had taken a Balrog his life to get rid of him the first time. Gandalf would have been beyond the skill of pretty much anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean that he was impossible to kill. He was, after all, still a Maia incarnate.
I wonder though. Does he not remark that "No weapon you have could harm me", or something like that?
Neurion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 03:32 PM   #3
Assasin
Wight
 
Assasin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a desert.
Posts: 142
Assasin has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Why would he be brought back just to die again? He wouldn't have been sent back unless he had something else to do. He has to do that thing that he was sent back to do before he can drop dead again. Neurion, he probably has some sort of wizard force field or something. Don't they have those at Wal-Mart?
__________________
Death is as light as a feather, duty is as heavy as a mountain.
Assasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 03:50 PM   #4
Neithan
Wight
 
Neithan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
Neithan has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucepan Man
Based on this, I think that Lhuna is right. Gandalf the White was just as much incarnate as Gandalf the Grey.
Well the Valar ate at that whole harvest feast thing, so Gandalf could be eating and sleeping to keep up the act and keep others from realizing what he was. For this reason we cannot discount the theory of Gandalf being clothed so easily.
It all depends on how you interpret Gandalfs words. If you take it literally to mean that Anduril could not hurt Gandalf then the only explanation is that he is clothed. If you interpret it as that no weapons in the hands of those three could hurt him then he has already demonstrated that to be true. This is somewhat amazing though, that Isildur can harm Sauron but Aragorn can't harm Gandalf. It is hard to imagine that Gandalf has this power but Sauron does not.
Anyway it depends on what you think is more unlikely, that Gandalf would go into an actual sleep in order to keep up the act or that Gandalf's words which seemed to say that Anduril could not hurt him was actually saying, in a round about way, that they could not hurt him.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau
Neithan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 07:56 PM   #5
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan
For this reason we cannot discount the theory of Gandalf being clothed so easily.
It never occurred to me to think of him as anything but incarnate as Gandalf the White.

But the words of Tolkien himself allow us to discount the theory. Letter #156 (a draft addressed to Robert J Murray dated 4 November 1956) provides a fascinating analysis of Gandalf's death and return. The relevant passage is long and I shall not repeat it all hear (although it bears reading if you have the Letters). However, the following excerpt is illuminating on this issue:


Quote:
He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but the Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' [ie the Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passsed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest.
The words which I have emboldened show that Tolkien regarded Gandalf the White and incarnate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Assasin
Why would he be brought back just to die again?
If Gandalf the White was "immune" from (physical) death, then wouldn't it rather lessen the tension of the second half of the book? No, he could have been killed. That's why the West was in such deadly peril. Had he fallen, then there would have been little hope left.

I suspect that his words to the Three Hunters involved, as has been suggested, a measure of foresight. He knew that he would not be killed by their weapons.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 08:42 PM   #6
Oddwen
Drummer in the Deep
 
Oddwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Next Sunday A.D.
Posts: 2,145
Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Oddwen is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Quote:
For a brief time I was sent back, until my task was done.
Is this just referring to the fact that he left for Valinor in the end? Or that he didn't know if Frodo would succeed, and assumed that he (Gandalf) and the rest might die before the Black Gate? (Forgive me, I can't remember exactly where that quote came from. The location of it probably explains it... )


Quote:
none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.
"None of you" - Axe, bow, and sword. No physical weapon can hurt him? What about something more violent, like Saruman's blasting fire? Or poison? Something from within, rather than from without?

That may explain why Pippin was able to sneak the Palantir, because Gandalf held him dear.

So...was Gandalf suceptible to treachery? Throw Denethor's madness into the mix and there's a whole new way to look at things...
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door


Last edited by Oddwen; 02-01-2005 at 08:54 PM. Reason: "some questions were answered, others sprang up. It's like I'm unravelling a big, cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting, and knitting, and knitting, and knitting..."
Oddwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 09:11 PM   #7
Lolidir
Wight
 
Lolidir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Roaming the plains of Middle Earth
Posts: 103
Lolidir has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Lolidir
i was doing a bit of thinking and came to the conclusion that maybe we are over thinking things. if you sneak up on someone and know that they will try to strike at you, who would be more prepared? you, who knows what they are going to do, or them, who only know what they will do? we all saw how Gimli's axe was thrown a conciderable distance when thrown at Gandalf, and we saw how he deflected the arrow. it is only logical that Aragorn would attack with his sword, and couldnt Gandalf throw it away as he did the axe? so maybe they didnt have anything that could hurt him beacause he knew how to counter them.
__________________
"Its a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to"
Lolidir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2005, 10:02 PM   #8
Neithan
Wight
 
Neithan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
Neithan has just left Hobbiton.
I stand corrected! Thank you Saucepan Man for that quote, I really must get the Letters. That question at least is settled. And I guess your analysis of what Ganalf meant is the best so far but it still doesn't seem quite right to me.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau
Neithan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:26 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.