LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 08 - The Road to Isengard

This is my favourite chapter.

[davem]

I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship. For all their friendship Legloas still clearly sees Gimli as materialistic & fails to understand that his friend could have anything more than a mercenary interest in the Caves' contents. And this comes after Gimli has been waxing lyrical about their beauty & declaring that Dwarves would consider them a place of pilgrimage.

One does have to ask whether Gimli would have had such feelings before he encountered & fell in love with Galadriel, but it does seem a bit unfeeling of Legolas to be so judgemental & condemnatory. Perhaps his predjudices remain despite all he has learned. Indeed, it seems that Gimli is the 'sensitive' one in this relationship, & Legolas is betraying the Elves' innate (but false) sense of 'superiority' over other races. I wonder if Tolkien is making a point here about his primary creation - they aren't in any way 'ideal' beings. They are smug, controlling & 'holier than thou' to a deeply unhealthy (& unpleasant) degree. Of course, they have their virtues, which at the least balance out such faults, but those faults are there. Legolas needs putting in his place - he is 'talking like a fool' & Gimli is right to point this out to him.

Legolas quite rightly accepts his friend's reprimand - he seems almost shocked when, finally, the implications of Gimli's words penetrate his Elven 'superiority'. Legolas has so far been in the role of 'teacher' - he has told the others about his people, has advised & made 'suggestions' - but one can't help feeling he has learned little: probably because like most of his kindred he has felt he had nothing to learn. Gimli, a mortal, has taught Legolas a valuable lesson here, & perhaps a seed has been planted in the Elf's heart. I can't help but wonder whether he has begun to realise that, like all his kindred, he is not needed any longer to guide & teach the 'younger children'. They can fend for themselves. His time is over. It is time to think seriously of saying 'Goodbye'.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I have always been moved by Gimli's response to the Caverns of Helm's Deep. It reminds me every time of the lines from the Dwarves' song at the beginning of the Hobbit:

There many a gleaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
On silver necklaces they strung
The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
The dragon-fire, in twisted wire
They meshed the light of moon and sun.

Even though the works mentioned in the poem aren't in their natural setting (like the caves), there is clearly a well-expressed and aesthetic appreciation for objects of beauty above and beyond pride in the works of their hands and commercial value. There is appreciation for, and imitation of nature here. It also strikes me that Gimli's appreciation for the caves is less sterile and stone-oriented than one generally associates with dwarves. He admires the caves in their natural setting because they look like living things, like flowers and underwater plants and the hands of Galadriel. He refers to them as "glades of flowering stone."

davem said:

Gimli's words penetrate his Elven 'superiority'. Legolas has so far been in the role of 'teacher' - he has told the others about his people, has advised & made 'suggestions' - but one can't help feeling he has learned little: probably because like most of his kindred he has felt he had nothing to learn.

I think there's a rather interesting point about the ancient enmity of elves and dwarves here as well. How often have Dwarves and Elves in their long history dwelt in the same halls? Menegroth, Nargothrond, the Halls of the Elven Kings of Mirkwood were all the result of the combined craftsmanship of Dwarves and Elves, and most decorated with very natural motifs (weren't Menegroth's columns carved like trees and its roofs like intertwined branches?). Khazad-dum and Eregion both profited from each others' influence.

Really, the Elves and Dwarves have much in common when it comes to taste and craftsmanship. Elves seem a bit more idealistic, they love the "original" natural phenomena and channel their power through stone (rings, etc.) to preserve it and preserve through representation only in addition to the originals or when the originals cannot be saved, whereas Dwarves seem content to surround themselves with representations. But both seek to preserve (and perhaps improve?) nature, to freeze it in stone, so to speak. But perhaps in recent times Dwarves have fallen away a bit from that ideal (from all accounts, I think that Erebor was a fairly utilitarian dwelling) and Elves, in their superiority, refuse to see that the Dwarves' project is similar to their own (although perhaps different in style).

It's nice to see Legolas and Gimli each discovering that the other has his own tastes and is capable of appreciating his companions'.

I supsect I've rambled.

Sophia

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A brief comment for now:

This is also one of my favorite chapters, along with The Shadow of the Past, The Council of Elrond, And the chapter with Theoden's speech and charge.
When reading it I have to have a plate of bacon, fried pork roll, some crusty Italian bread (nicely buttered) and a bit of beer, for when the Three Walkers meet Merry and Pippin and get some nice snacks. (One of the nice movie bits are the shots of hobbits preparing food in FOTR). Although it's always seemed a bit out of character for Strider to stay with them rather then going immediately to meet Treebeard.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

WE learn a lot about Saruman in this chapter. We learn his true desire, & all his clever philosophising in his talk with Gandalf is exposed. He wants to be Sauron

This is where we finally hear the narrator's absolute word on Saruman, and he tells us that he was indeed trying to be like Sauron. Until now, we've only heard via the voices of other characters what Saruman is all about. We've heard what Gandalf has to say about him at the Council of Elrond, and we accept this because we have grown to love and trust Gandalf, both through The Hobbit and the early chapters of LotR. We also see something of Saruman's nature through the actions of Grima, and reports of his raids on Rohan. Then we see a little more of this to devastating effect at Helm's Deep. But it is not until now that the narrator steps in and tells us what he is like. And we still haven't even heard Saruman speak for himself.

This is wonderful character building, and dare I say it, Saruman comes across as far more sinister than Sauron because of this. He has met and dealt harshly with one of our most loved characters, and several other characters have had dealings with him. These are real, tangible events, unlike the dark, slightly mysterious psychological effects which Sauron has on his enemies. I also think it is testament to Tolkien's writing that he can have us invest so much in characters like Gandalf and Theoden, that we are prepared to believe that what Saruman has done to them is diabolical, even though we have never yet 'met' with this character. This all sets the scene perfectly for The Voice of Saruman, as we have heard all these tales, and now we have had the narrator himself step in and tell us just how terrible he is.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I think Davem is on to something:

There has been a battle of men against monsters, against the 'darkness' personified, but there has been another battle, a mythical battle of the trees & the forces which seek to wipe them from the earth. Its as if these two battles eched each other, or perhaps its the same battle taking place on two planes - the mundane & the supernatural - simultaneously.

Perhaps the battle of the trees is one instance of the general progression from the mundane to the mythic and supernatural that dominates the early pages of the story? I would definitely agree that the Ents and Huorn are mythic but they are not the only glimpses we get of this other plane.

We begin in the Shire, a thoroughly mundane world. Throughout the early chapters of the book, but especially in Lorien, we gain small glimpses of the Elvish connection with the mythic, as reflected in Galadriel or her Phial and its tiny sliver of a Silmaril. Yet we are still in the world of manlike beings and recorded history.

Sauron’s forces actually benefitted from the power of the “mythic” or “supernatural” long before Frodo and company did. The Barrow-wight and the Nazgul, and even more the Watcher in the Water and the Balrog, push the story back to the edge of legend. To me, creatures like the Watcher or the Balrog are more than mere "monstors". The two are as much part of myth, and are just as alien to Man, as would later be true of the Huorn. Whether these various creatures were intentional or accidental allies of Sauron is not always clear, but they all had personal reasons for supporting the cause of the dark shadow. The same (in reverse) will also hold true for the Ents and the Huorn.

By the time the group reaches Moria, all traces of the mundane world have been stripped away but the members of the fellowship have yet to tap into anything remotely as powerful or as mythic as the Balrog. Frodo carries the Phial, for example, but does not see a use for it yet. The climax of all this is the seeming end of hope with the death of Gandalf by a 'supernatural' creature.

I don’t think it’s coincidental that the return of Gandalf coincides with the emergence of the Huorn and the Ents, in effect the release of the mythic for the benefit of the ‘good guys’. What happened to Gandalf can only be described as “mythic” –certainly far beyond anything we understand of the mundane world. The transformed Gandalf is, I think, the catalyst for drawing the mythic plane into closer alignment with the natural one. This chapter, ‘The Road to Isengard’ chronicles that shift, showing how mythic creatures like the Huorn and Ents bring their strength to bear against Saruman. How ironic that Saruman should be destroyed by the very “mythic” forces that he gave such little credence to, preferring to manufacture his own modern versions of 'old' things.

Gandalf’s words to Theoden suggest that, even at this point in the story, Men have serious difficulties recognizing supernatural aid. The istar points out that young children in Rohan would probably have done a better job than the King in recognizing the Ents for what they really are :

‘You should be glad, Théoden King,’ said Gandalf. ‘For not only the little life of Men is now endangered, but the life also of those things which you have deemed the matter of legend. You are not without allies, even if you know them not.”

There is another irony here. Just at the point when Tolkien gives us our first clear glimpse of the mythic rising up against the “modern” villain Saruman, we are reminded that the realm of the supernatural is being shut off from Man, and will no longer be accessible to us. Theoden’s reply to Gandalf concerning this withdrawal is among the most poignant in the chapter, as is the King’s earlier reference to the difficulties of his old age. Both passages reinforce the reality that Man lives in the mundane world, is subject to the ravages of time, and is lucky to get even the tiniest glimpse of the mythic:

Theoden on old age: ‘My men are weary with battle,’ said the King; ‘and I am weary also. For I have ridden far and slept little. Alas! My old age is not feigned nor due only to the whisperings of Wormtongue. It is an ill that no leech can wholly cure, not even Gandalf.’

On the withdrawal of the ‘magic’: ‘Yet also I should be sad,’ said Theoden. ‘For however the fortune of war shall go, may it not so end that much that was fair and wonderful shall pass forever out of Middle-earth?’

Strange…..but the older I get, the wiser Theoden seems.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Before I turn the page to the next chapter, I would like to mention how much I enjoy the ending of this one - it's so very hobbity!

'So that is the King of Rohan!' said Pippin in an undertone. 'A fine old fellow. Very polite.'

The preceding pages also have such wonderful humour - Merry's high-falutin' language, used with tongue in cheek; Gimli's "torn between rage and joy"; Théoden's 'It cannot be doubted that we witness the meeting of dear friends" - all bring welcome yet subtle comic relief into the story. (...too subtle for the movies, apparently. )

[Formendacil]

Although I argued, only a thread ago, that the denouément of Book III doesn't come until after "The Voice of Saruman," there is nonetheless something of a denouément feel to "The Road to Isengard," coming as it does after the heights of "Helm's Deep." If the plot is a series of peaks and valleys, this chapter is a valley rather than a peak.

Nonetheless, it is laden with some of the most beautiful parts of the entire book. Both Gimli's description of the Glittering Caves and his pact with Legolas could be mentioned here, or the mystery of the wood, or the description of Isengard. I would also include the passing of the wood back to Fangorn past our company--a passage I don't recall noting before.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Although it's always seemed a bit out of character for Strider to stay with them rather then going immediately to meet Treebeard.

I think Tuor has a point here, though I'm not going to characterise it as "out of character." Rather, I think that, left to his own devices, Aragorn probably *would* be more curious to go and meet Treebeard. The fact that he does not do so is a revelation of character. After pursuing the Hobbits across Rohan and into Fangorn, Aragorn still has a "duty" to the Fellowship (as we see in the next chapter, not necessarily an unpleasant duty). It's sort of like a father taking off time from work when something major and ambitious is being tackled to see a child's ball game: the investment of his time in a personal matter when there is something major tugging at him demonstrates the importance he places on the personal relationship.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship.
Legolas to be so judgemental & condemnatory. Perhaps his predjudices remain despite all he has learned. Indeed, it seems that Gimli is the 'sensitive' one in this relationship, & Legolas is betraying the Elves' innate (but false) sense of 'superiority' over other races. I wonder if Tolkien is making a point here about his primary creation - they aren't in any way 'ideal' beings. They are smug, controlling & 'holier than thou' to a deeply unhealthy (& unpleasant) degree. Of course, they have their virtues, which at the least balance out such faults, but those faults are there. Legolas needs putting in his place - he is 'talking like a fool' & Gimli is right to point this out to him.

.

Although as an "elf-fancier" , Legolas was one of my favourites when I first read the book, even I would admit that he makes his fair share of "silly" and inane remarks. I wouldn't be quite as harsh as davem's character assassination but Elves in general do seem to have a major problem of relating to mortals. Which I guess is understandable - especially since most of them have few dealings with them other than the Dunedain who are the most "elvish" of men - though I wouldn't particulary expect Legolas to be in this category as the Mirkwood elves traded with the "ordinary" Lake men. I would put a lot of this down to the ennui "disengagement" discussed widely elsewhere of the Exiles preparing to return rather than quite such major character flaws. Gildor may have made the dismissive comment about mortals not being their concern but he nevertheless takes steps to safeguard the hobbits as far as he can and to alert Rivendell to their peril.

Other examples of the elf's insensitivity are his flippant comments on Caradhras and his comment that the hobbits should dig a hole if they did not want to climb trees to escape from Orcs. However I cannot think of a similar one after Gimli's rebuke. He becomes a more thoughtful elf and his comments in Minas Tirith - will be far removed from those at Helms deep.

[Lhunardawen]

As a quite shallow person, I find it easy to smile and laugh and giggle at many scenes in the LotR books. But one of the scenes that reached out and tugged at my heartstrings was that of the meeting between the hobbits and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, as well as Theoden's polite and humble remarks. I remember myself squirming in my seat, giggling wildly as I read through that part. Until now I find it a great misfortune that what was promised in that scene will be broken in the end. (No need to be specific. Hint: Theoden and Merry )

davem (on Elven Superiority):
I found myself nodding to your words, but I thought I would defend Legolas a bit... At the beginning of the chapter, as Gimli and Legolas met again, the Elf admitted his defeat in their game for he was so glad to see Gimli safe. Do not these words presage that he is letting go of his "superiority" little by little?

[mark12_30]

Gandalf is persistently mysterious throughout this chapter as shown in several quotes following:

‘Hail, Lord of the Mark!’ said Éomer. ‘The dark night has passed and day has come again. But the day has brought strange tidings.’ He turned and gazed in wonder, first at the wood and then at Gandalf. ‘... You are mighty in wizardry, Gandalf the White!’
‘That may be. But if so, I have not shown it yet. "

‘And what may be the answer to your riddle?’ said Théoden.
‘If you would learn that, you should come with me to Isengard’ answered Gandalf....".... There we may see strange things.’

‘Let the Orcs lie,’ said Gandalf. ‘The morning may bring new counsel.’

‘What has become of the miserable Orcs?’ said Legolas.
‘That, I think, no one will ever know,’ said Gandalf.

All that gandalfian mystery makes the next quote all the more fun:

Gandalf laughed long and merrily.

Gandalf lectures Theoden about Old Wives Tales:

‘You need no weapons,’ said Gandalf. ‘These are but herdsmen. They are not enemies, indeed they are not concerned with us at all.’
So it seemed to be; for as he spoke the tall creatures, without a glance at the riders, strode into the wood and vanished.
‘Herdsmen!’ said Théoden. ‘Where are their flocks? What are they, Gandalf? For it is plain that to you, at any rate, they are not strange.’
‘They are the shepherds of the trees,’ answered Gandalf. ‘Is it so long since you listened to tales by the fireside? There are children in your land who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your question. You have seen Ents, O King, Ents out of Fangorn Forest, which in your tongue you call the Entwood. Did you think that the name was given only in idle fancy? Nay, Théoden, it is otherwise: to them you are but the passing tale; all the years from Eorl the Young to Théoden the Old are of little count to them; and all the deeds of your house but a small matter.’

Commentary by the fords of Isen is provided by Eomer...

"Maybe he is boiling all the waters of Isen, and that is why the river runs dry.’

...He always brings me a fond smile.


The lovely glimpses of the distant past:

Partly it was shaped in the making of the mountains, but mighty works the Men of Westernesse had wrought there of old...
Once it had been green and filled with avenues, and groves of fruitful trees, watered by streams that flowed from the mountains to a lake. But no green thing grew there in the latter days of Saruman. ...
It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills. A peak and isle of rock it was. black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns. their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain....A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars.

Tolkien's commentary, I think, that the works of any "evil Genius" point to their true and original father:

...for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own. came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child’s model or a slave’s flattery, of that vast fortress. armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr...

"Two hundred leagues, through fen and forest, battle and death, to rescue you! "

I think I finally figured out that a "league"-- three miles-- is the distance a normal footsoldier or a man travels in an hour. When Gimli says two hundred leagues, that's in essence saying 'two hundred hours worth' of travel, although they ran and rode much of it. Still, Gimli's indignation is easier to understand if we imagine it in those terms. How long would it take me to travel two hundred leagues-- six hundred miles? Frodo traveled 17 miles a day from Bag End to Rivendell. Maybe I could make twenty, if I was lucky. It would take me .... hmmmm... (mark12_30 does some calculations on fingers) Thirty days? To find my quarry 'feasting and idling and smoking. Smoking!'

Theoden, bless him, takes Gandalf's words about the legends of the past, to heart:

"The days are fated to be filled with marvels. Already I have seen many since I left my house; and now here before my eyes stand yet another of the folk of legend. Are not these the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan?’

It seems significant to me that Pippin remained in his napping posture until he heard Theoden's comment:

"No report that I have heard does justice to the truth.’
Merry bowed; and Pippin got up and bowed low.

Merry had been busy being polite this whole time. Pippin had been (for a hobbit) extremely un-polite! Still flat on his back! But at this moment, he both stands, and then bows low.

Merry is magnificent and delightful, polite, astute, and shrewd:

‘He left a message,’ said Merry, ‘and I was coming to it, but I have been hindered by many other questions. I was to say that, if the Lord of the Mark and Gandalf will ride to the northern wall they will find Treebeard there, and he will welcome them. I may add that they will also find food of the best there, it was discovered and selected by your humble servants.’ He bowed.

Gandalf:

For Treebeard is Fangorn, and the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things.’

I wonder. When Gandalf says "living things", is he implying that Ents are 'things'-- body first, soul second? As opposed to, say, a Maia or a Vala, who was spirit first, then body? Maybe I'm being affected by Morsul the Dark's theory that Ents turn into trees in order to 'die'... But Ents, it seems to me, are wood first, speakers second. Whereas Maia and Vala are speakers first, and flesh second. (I suspect also that Tom Bombadil might fit into this category... just a thought.) Anyway, maybe when Gandalf says "you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things" maybe he's talking about the oldest Thing that has 'come to life'-- not the oldest being (which would be those beings that had spirits before Arda was made.) So maybe Tom is the Oldest spirit clothed with a body, but Treebeard is the oldest Object-turned-sentient.

[Guinevere]

I made notes about what moved me and interested me most in this chapter-
the conversation of Gandalf and Théoden about the Ents and the "fireside tales" and the sadness because much that is fair and wonderful will pass away.
but I see that Lalwendë has written exactly about that and I couldn't agree more!
This passage is so typical for Tolkien - it relates to the story and yet it is a truth. The Ents have passed away and only the unexplained word is left in some old texts - Tolkien had to re-invent a meaning.

I was also moved by Gimli's description of Aglarond - it shows that he has the soul of a poet! Here we see how he and Legolas have become friends indeed. It is so important to them to share what they delight in, that they will overcome their reluctance to strange places.

Davem wrote:
I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship. For all their friendship Legloas still clearly sees Gimli as materialistic & fails to understand that his friend could have anything more than a mercenary interest in the Caves' contents.

Well, my impression was that Legolas had this opinion of dwarves in general, but not about Gimli, who seems to him an exeption in his appreciation of beauty.
"But do not tell all your kindred!" he warns him.
I agree with Davem about the Elves general sense of "superiority", but I feel this more about Gildor, or Haldir, or Lindir in Rivendell... Legolas himself never strikes me as particularly smug or "holier than thou". I rather think he is really quite modest - he is just "Legolas the Elf" and never mentions that he is the son of a king, and readily accepts Aragorn as his leader.


But there is one thing in this chapter that makes me wonder:
When the company have reached the Fords of the Isen, Théoden says:

"Alas! Must we pass this way where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?"

and then Gandalf shows them the mound on the islet

"Here lie all the Men of the Mark that fell near this place," said Gandalf.
"Here let them rest!" said Éomer. "And when their spears have rotted and rusted, long still may their mound stand and guard the Fords of Isen!"

Why on Earth is Théodred never mentioned ? After all, it is here that the king's son fell, and to go by U.T., he must also be buried here ! (His last words were: "Let me lie here until Éomer comes!") Already in the preceding chapters I thought it rather strange that Théoden doesn't mourn for his son. (Only Grima mentions his death) And now he passes his grave (or at least the place where he fell) and not one word about Théodred!
(Perhaps Movie-théoden overdid it a bit, but on the whole I thought that it was a good idea in the movie to show Théodred's funeral and his father's grief.)

Has anyone an explanation for this?