Tactical discussion: Combatting Attack Trolls - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Neurion · 02-09-2005, 01:06 PM

How exactly would one go about fighting one of these things?

My own preference would be from high walls with light ballistae, but the Gondorians don't have these in the movie (though Games Workshop made a miniature of one).

As a Gondorian captain, how would you try and kill an attack troll?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-09-2005, 01:19 PM

Minas Tirith did seem quite unprepared for the Trolls. I really had the sense of trouble when I saw the Trolls break into the City.

Ideally, I would deploy Ents.

the phantom · 02-09-2005, 01:41 PM

Well, I suppose range would be my best friend. I would want a company of men with big long bows (the kind that you basically set on the ground to use, and fire thick, heavy shafts). Some of the trolls didn't have a chest plate so a couple well-placed shots would bring it down. The ones that had the armor- well, aim for for the cracks and for the face and neck. A couple large bolts through the neck should do the trick.

In front of the archers I would deploy several rows of men with very long pikes or something similar.

Quote:

Ideally, I would deploy Ents.

Ha!

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-09-2005, 01:43 PM

From a siege prespective, I'd say go with ballistae and, once they close to the walls, dropped heavy rubbble and boiling oil.

From a combat prespective, longbows or crossbows (we know Legolas can put an arrow into them) or if you have to deal with one closing with you a good pike. Plus a pike is useful because if a troll charges you can set the pike and it will skewer iteslf, effectively turning it's natural strength against it.

The trolls main advantages are strength and reach. Long ranged attacks, like bows, negate the strength advantages because strength is useless if it can't be applied (and trolls don't seem to use any ranged weapons, thankfully.) Reach can be negated by both ranged attacks and using a weapon that extends your natural reach.

Edit - Phantom looks like great minds think alike.

You beat me to the post while I was typing.

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen · 02-09-2005, 01:56 PM

I'm not sure whether this would work or not, but along with bows and spikes, I would attempt using fire. Light some large arrows on fire and shoot them at the troll. Now, perhaps a troll's skin is not vulnerable to fire, but I suppose it would be worth a try.

Poor trolls! I can't help but be sorry for them. Mostly, they are merely dumb muscle creatures that Sauron decided to use in his war against Middle Earth, like Oliphants. They really don't have intelligence enough to protest.

Neurion · 02-09-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Minas Tirith did seem quite unprepared for the Trolls. I really had the sense of trouble when I saw the Trolls break into the City.

Minas Tirith seemed pretty unprepared for just about everything IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Ideally, I would deploy Ents.

LOL. Yes, that would be ideal.

Perhaps another thing to consider would be luring them into areas where they can't manouver, liked small cramped streets.

Tuor of Gondolin · 02-09-2005, 07:30 PM

Recall that in the book, unlike PJ's visions, the Gondorians were able to deal fairly effectively with oliphaunts, though not without cost, and reminiscent of the way Alexander the Great's army was able to deal with scythed chariots and the Romans with Carthaginian elephants (and without Leggy's showboating).

Quote:

...both Duilin of Morthond and his brother were trampled to death when they assailed the mumakil, leading their bowmen close to shoot at the eyes of the monsters.

In a way, trolls are analagous to World War II Wehrmacht King Tiger tanks, very potent, but with limiting factors due to their very size and lack of mobility and agility. Since a troll could theoretically be taken down with a releatively small
defensive firepower (analagous to an anti-tank weapon such as a bazooka or German (panzerfaust?) knocking out a tank, trolls seem a limited and questionable weapon against anything but PJ's rather effete Gondorians.

Hey. Even a hobbit (granted one who's sipped some Entwater) took out a troll,
so how tough could they be.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-10-2005, 09:06 AM

Also the trolls greatness weakness is the fact they aren't the brightest crayons in the box. If their stupidity could be used against them by luring them into traps or bad tacital situations(outnumbered or consricted) that might be an effective strategy.

alatar · 02-10-2005, 12:35 PM

Lure them into a boxed street then pepper them from above with arrows, bolts, whatever. Take out their eyes first, then you might be able to have the trolls attack each other accidentally.

In the non-PJ world I would just have a White Wizard at the door, and that would be the end of that (sigh). Or maybe just a little sunlight bounced down to the gate from some mirrors would turn the first trolls through the gate into stone, plugging it up.

In the PJ world one could:
- have Legolas crush them with falling oliphants (one dead Oli at the gate would have been a big help).
- drop flaming Stewards on them from the Citadel of Gondor ("Hi. You're the new Steward," <pour oil> <ignite> <jump>, "Next!") as the force of impact from the same has got to do some damage, even to Trolls. They would be like self-guiding 'smart' bombs, and the flames can't hurt either.
- have Arwen the She-Elf say something dire then flood them with Minas Tirith's sewage system.
- intentionally collapse a stone building on them.

One of the first three trolls through the door goes down, and so I would repeat the same action (can't remember what it was).

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-10-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Or maybe just a little sunlight bounced down to the gate from some mirrors would turn the first trolls through the gate into stone, plugging it up.

Ah, but weren't they sunlight resistant?

alatar · 02-10-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but weren't they sunlight resistant?

Oops!

Scrap the mirrors idea; looks like it's going to take something brighter like one of those Galadriel's phials.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-10-2005, 01:45 PM

I present my fool-proof plan...

EDIT- Done with MS Paint. Imagine the sarcasmo-meter if I had photoshop

Neurion · 02-10-2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but weren't they sunlight resistant?

No. They were covered by the Great Darkness (which came across more as the Great Overcast in the films).

Neurion · 02-10-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

I present my fool-proof plan...

EDIT- Done with MS Paint. Imagine the sarcasmo-meter if I had photoshop

Hmm, might have a practical application, but Tooks are in short supply (being Fallowhides, the least numerous of the three Hobbit strains), so you'd need an alternative bait.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-10-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neurion

No. They were covered by the Great Darkness

Not sure that it's quite as clear cut as that. Did you read the articles I linked to?

Neurion · 02-10-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Not sure that it's quite as clear cut as that. Did you read the articles I linked to?

Whether they're immune to sunlight or not, I think the mirriors are worth looking into. The Byzantines apparently possesed a system of mirrors whereby they could focus sunlight into a laser-like beam capable of setting ships on fire. Surely a device like that could be used as an effective deterrent at the very least.

alatar · 02-10-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neurion

Whether they're immune to sunlight or not, I think the mirriors are worth looking into. The Byzantines apparently possesed a system of mirrors whereby they could focus sunlight into a laser-like beam capable of setting ships on fire. Surely a device like that could be used as an effective deterrent at the very least.

Mythbusters, a TV show on the Discovery channel, say 'no' to the mirror in regards to setting boats aflame MythBusters Episode 16. Note that Trolls (resistant or native) were not tested.

Neurion · 02-10-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Mythbusters, a TV show on the Discovery channel, say 'no' to the mirror in regards to setting boats aflame MythBusters Episode 16. Note that Trolls (resistant or native) were not tested.

Hmm. well Tolkien did make paralels between the Gondorians and the Byzantines, so perhaps we should start researching Greek Fire.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-10-2005, 10:14 PM

Hmmm, I believe the ulimate weapon can be stolen from elsewhere...

The Hobbit DoomDiver!

More or less it is a giant ballista, however instead of firing bolts it fires Hobbits in hangglider (with a spear in front) that can pilot the missile at the enemies. Surely a 1:1 ratio of hobbit to troll losses would be acceptable.

alatar · 02-11-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Hmmm, I believe the ulimate weapon can be stolen from elsewhere...

The Hobbit DoomDiver!

More or less it is a giant ballista, however instead of firing bolts it fires Hobbits in hangglider (with a spear in front) that can pilot the missile at the enemies. Surely a 1:1 ratio of hobbit to troll losses would be acceptable.

Silly Dwarf. A better version lies right under your beard. Dwarven DoomDivers carry more weight (the 'm' in F=ma), are more resistant to flak/countermeasures due to steel mailshirts, have a slightly better survival rate (okay, so it's still almost zero) and if conscious after impact may say something sarcastic regarding elvish princes - what's not to like?

I hear that recruitment has already started...don't wait til the last minute as you still have your choice of hang glider color.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-11-2005, 10:03 AM

Presented without comment

alatar · 02-11-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Presented without comment

Presented without thought, perhaps?

1. Where are the trolls?

2. Only Saruman can shoot fireballs as he's the White Wiz...or he was the White...whatever color he is, he did shoot a fireball. That we all know for sure. However, it may be a once a day thing, hardly enough to be of any use in battle (if he could shoot more, then Isengard wouldn't be so squishy). Just a thought - Saruman, rumored to be able to project his voice from great heights (in the PJ world at least) could provide great battle commentary from the kite.

3. Blue wizards throw water balloons.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-11-2005, 10:29 AM

Darn wizards and their proofreading magic!!!

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-11-2005, 10:42 AM

Anyway back to the topic at hand, another idea struck me. Trolls don't seem to be light on their feet, so perhaps some city corriders could be set up with trip lines to bring down the trolls. After they are down just whip out the spears and attack en masse.

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Anyway back to the topic at hand, another idea struck me. Trolls don't seem to be light on their feet, so perhaps some city corriders could be set up with trip lines to bring down the trolls. After they are down just whip out the spears and attack en masse.

Drat! I was just going to say that!

King of the North · 03-22-2005, 11:14 AM

Since melee combat with these creatures is almost impossible, one would have to approach the situation with ranged weapons. The only problem then is to aim correctly because trolls used primarily for combat are armored. Other weapons that could be used against them would be ballistas, javelins, and other weapons that one can throw.

alatar · 03-22-2005, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Ah, but weren't they sunlight resistant?

Just another thought on this. Did PJ, who took a moment to show 'Bilbo's trolls,' ever say anything about any trolls being sunlight affected? The troll in Moria may or may not have been. Just thought that the Uruk Hai didn't appreciate the sunrise and 'Gandalf glow' when they were so rudely interrupted at Helm's Deep, and so again I would think that some bright wizardy lights would have made the Gondor trolls a bit more susceptible to the other traps, weapons, tactics mentioned above.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-22-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Did PJ, who took a moment to show 'Bilbo's trolls,' ever say anything about any trolls being sunlight affected?

I think that was mentioned briefly in the first movie by Bilbo himself, telling the story of the trolls to the children. I'm sure the reference was easy to miss, especially for first time watchers with no knowledge of the book.

02-09-2005, 01:06 PM	#1
Neurion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs Posts: 258	Tactical discussion: Combating Attack Trolls How exactly would one go about fighting one of these things? My own preference would be from high walls with light ballistae, but the Gondorians don't have these in the movie (though Games Workshop made a miniature of one). As a Gondorian captain, how would you try and kill an attack troll? __________________ ____________________________________ "And a cold voice rang forth from the blade. Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." Last edited by Neurion; 02-09-2005 at 01:10 PM.

02-09-2005, 01:19 PM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Minas Tirith did seem quite unprepared for the Trolls. I really had the sense of trouble when I saw the Trolls break into the City. Ideally, I would deploy Ents. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-09-2005, 01:56 PM	#5
Linnahiril Tinnufinwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 77	I'm not sure whether this would work or not, but along with bows and spikes, I would attempt using fire. Light some large arrows on fire and shoot them at the troll. Now, perhaps a troll's skin is not vulnerable to fire, but I suppose it would be worth a try. Poor trolls! I can't help but be sorry for them. Mostly, they are merely dumb muscle creatures that Sauron decided to use in his war against Middle Earth, like Oliphants. They really don't have intelligence enough to protest. __________________ The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page

02-11-2005, 10:42 AM	#24
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Anyway back to the topic at hand, another idea struck me. Trolls don't seem to be light on their feet, so perhaps some city corriders could be set up with trip lines to bring down the trolls. After they are down just whip out the spears and attack en masse. Last edited by Snorri Swifthammer; 02-11-2005 at 11:14 AM.

03-22-2005, 11:14 AM	#26
King of the North Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Washington State Posts: 60	Since melee combat with these creatures is almost impossible, one would have to approach the situation with ranged weapons. The only problem then is to aim correctly because trolls used primarily for combat are armored. Other weapons that could be used against them would be ballistas, javelins, and other weapons that one can throw. __________________ Ask for everything, recieve nothing

02-09-2005, 01:43 PM	#4
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	From a siege prespective, I'd say go with ballistae and, once they close to the walls, dropped heavy rubbble and boiling oil. From a combat prespective, longbows or crossbows (we know Legolas can put an arrow into them) or if you have to deal with one closing with you a good pike. Plus a pike is useful because if a troll charges you can set the pike and it will skewer iteslf, effectively turning it's natural strength against it. The trolls main advantages are strength and reach. Long ranged attacks, like bows, negate the strength advantages because strength is useless if it can't be applied (and trolls don't seem to use any ranged weapons, thankfully.) Reach can be negated by both ranged attacks and using a weapon that extends your natural reach. Edit - Phantom looks like great minds think alike. You beat me to the post while I was typing.

02-10-2005, 09:06 AM	#8
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Also the trolls greatness weakness is the fact they aren't the brightest crayons in the box. If their stupidity could be used against them by luring them into traps or bad tacital situations(outnumbered or consricted) that might be an effective strategy.

02-10-2005, 12:35 PM	#9
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Lure them into a boxed street then pepper them from above with arrows, bolts, whatever. Take out their eyes first, then you might be able to have the trolls attack each other accidentally. In the non-PJ world I would just have a White Wizard at the door, and that would be the end of that (sigh). Or maybe just a little sunlight bounced down to the gate from some mirrors would turn the first trolls through the gate into stone, plugging it up. In the PJ world one could: - have Legolas crush them with falling oliphants (one dead Oli at the gate would have been a big help). - drop flaming Stewards on them from the Citadel of Gondor ("Hi. You're the new Steward," <pour oil> <ignite> <jump>, "Next!") as the force of impact from the same has got to do some damage, even to Trolls. They would be like self-guiding 'smart' bombs, and the flames can't hurt either. - have Arwen the She-Elf say something dire then flood them with Minas Tirith's sewage system. - intentionally collapse a stone building on them. One of the first three trolls through the door goes down, and so I would repeat the same action (can't remember what it was).

02-10-2005, 10:14 PM	#19
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	Hmmm, I believe the ulimate weapon can be stolen from elsewhere... The Hobbit DoomDiver! More or less it is a giant ballista, however instead of firing bolts it fires Hobbits in hangglider (with a spear in front) that can pilot the missile at the enemies. Surely a 1:1 ratio of hobbit to troll losses would be acceptable.