Dear G; Tried to find you...

[davem]

I'm not sure this 'argument' can ever be resolved. I do wonder if its significant, though, that the Mouth of Sauron claims he is 'a Herald & Ambassador & may not be assailed'.

It seems to me that he is attempting to make use of some kind of Middle earth equivalent of the Geneva Convention, & clearly expects Aragorn et al to be bound by that. If it is the case that heralds may not be assailed then it seems likely that they would not take a direct part in the fighting, or that kind of 'diplomatic immunity' would not have applied.....

[The Barrow-Wight]

I don't know if it would be wise to use anything the Mouth of Sauron said as support for an argument. He was an evil man working in the service of the king of liars, so his choice of titles should always be highly suspect at best. It would be probably be unwise to equate his position in any way with that of Elrond, especially since his claim of unassailability went with the ambassador part of his statement.

‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Barrow-Wight

I don't know if it would be wise to use anything the Mouth of Sauron said as support for an argument. He was an evil man working in the service of the king of liars, so his choice of titles should always be highly suspect at best. It would be probably be unwise to equate his position in any way with that of Elrond, especially since his claim of unassailability went with the ambassador part of his statement.

I'll get me coat.....

[Eruanna]

As the esteemed Barrow Wight said and also, the perceived Diplomatic Immunity of the heralds only came into being much later (Tudor/Elizabethan and afterwards) when their positions became more or less those of petty officials who marshalled tournaments or 'talked up' their lord's prowess in the joust, rather than the battle messengers of earlier times.

However, Bethberry's notion of Elrond as herald and Arwen's banner making, is something that I had not considered before...One of the reasons why I love this place

[Garen LiLorian]

the perceived Diplomatic Immunity of the heralds only came into being much later (Tudor/Elizabethan and afterwards) when their positions became more or less those of petty officials who marshalled tournaments or 'talked up' their lord's prowess in the joust, rather than the battle messengers of earlier times.

Be that as it may, in Lotr it seems to be that the person of a herald is sacrosanct. (at least, while the fighting isn't actually going on)

...Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of his enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley.
The Orcs yelled and jeered... Get down or we will shoot you from the wall,' they cried. 'This is no parley. You have nothing to say.'

However, once in the thick of battle, anything seems to go. Indeed, Theoden kills the Haradrim standard bearer, and it is this deed that he boasts of as he lays dying. So, to bring us back to where we started, for Elrond to be unarmed would be foolish, and for us to consider him a non-combatant as Gil-Galad's herald seems silly to me. Another 'those without swords can still die on them' moment, perhaps.

[Eruanna]

As you say Garen, back where we started. Where was Glorfindel? It is the wisdom of Gandalf that persuades Elrond to send Merry and Pippin along, instead of Glorfindel, after all.
Perhaps Tolkien thought that having a wise warrior leader such as Glorfindel as part of the fellowship would detract too much from Aragorn and his journey into kingship. There can be only one leader for the fellowship.
It would have satisfied our curiosity if Tolkien had been more explicit about Galadriel, Celeborn and Thranduil's actions in ridding Lorien and Mirkwood of the Orcs.
I choose to believe that Glorfindel was there with them, just as I choose to believe that Elladan and Elrohir sailed into the West after their sister died...but that thread has already been covered

[Garen LiLorian]

I choose to believe that Glorfindel was there with them

That'd make sense, and I had forgotten Formendacil's excellent point, that

he came to Gondor in the group that included the elves of Lothlorien, as well as the Elves of Rivendell.

This at least gives Glorfindel an alibi when all the war heroes sit around afterwards telling stories. I still think it is odd, however, that he alone of all Elves (mentioned, anyway) reincarnates with the express purpose of fighting Sauron, yet he is practically nowhere to be found in the great battles.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales:

When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-Galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion.

Then:

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung on a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.

Later:

But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear.

It was during this campaign that Elrond, while surrounded by Sauron’s forces, established Rivendell as a refuge for the survivors of Sauron’s occupation of Eregion.

So Elrond was clearly a military commander during the Second Age. At some point thereafter, he renounced combat to concentrate on healing. The first reference to his healing powers that I am aware of was when he healed his wife following her abduction by Orcs (in TA 2509). That was well after the Last Alliance, so it is quite possible that Elrond took and active part in the campaign as a combatant. His designation as Gil-Galad’s herald would not be incompatible with this, in my view.

[Formendacil]

And what about Elrond in the First Age?

For the first 50-100 years of his life, Elrond lived in a society that was VERY dangerous for Eldar or Edain. And he wasn't even on the relatively safe Balar with Gil-galad and Cirdan, but rather he was with the mainland-bound Sons of Feanor.

Also, note that he and Elros were raised by Maglor. Maglor might have been the most pacifist of the Sons of Feanor, but do you honestly think that a three-times Kinslayer would allow his adopted sons to sit by idly while they fought for their very lives?

Also, in earlier versions, the son(s) of Earendil took part in the War of Wrath. As far as I know, this remained the case in the later conceptions.

Elrond might have been a pacifist come the War of the Last Alliance, although I would wait until after if I were to date his retirement, but it is plain that in earlier times he must have had to take up the sword.

[Mithalwen]

I am aware of the role of Quakers, and indeed that even today musicians are used as stretcher bearers, but I don't think there is evidence for burrahobbit to claim his opinion as incontravertible fact. It was not customary for elf women to fight either but they did when they had to. And regardless of being a Maiar, if Eonwe can be both herald and warrior so can Elrond.

Furthermore the sons of Elrond were both mighty warriors and skilled healers as is shown in LOTR when they aid Aragorn after the battle of the Pelennor FIelds - and they are more Elvish than their father.