If they still had Gandalf... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Glirdan · 02-23-2005, 06:09 PM

That's anegative thought bookworm, (no offense) but a really interesting theory. As to your question alatar, what I mean is in your really long post, you failed to mention what you thought of Ewoyn killing the WK and Theoden dying by the WK. I would like to know what happens to them in your theory.

Glirdy

AragornII · 02-23-2005, 07:59 PM

Also, alatar, if Gandalf had sent Aragorn to go after the hobbits while he and Sam go for Frodo, how does Boromir still die? Wouldn't either Aragorn die with him (and so ending the return of the king theme) or Boromir lives and he and Aragorn defeat the Orcs? Thne once again, nobody would help Rohan and they would be gone and Saruman would still be alive and well and then... you know, all that stuff I said before.

alatar · 02-24-2005, 10:45 AM

bookworm, I would like to see how Galadriel and the Galadhrim would fare against the Balrog. Note that the Balrog was there (possibly sleeping at times) since the War of Wrath. If it had an itching to take on Galadriel, then it had more than enough opportunities to do so, but evidence shows that it did not. On the another thread it was discussed regarding what the Balrog would have done if it had crossed the Bridge - pursue FOTR beyond Moria or halt at the first gate, content with driving the FOTR out.

Also note that Sauron never overthrew Lothlorien, and would need the Ring to be assured of victory against Galadriel.

Glirdy and Aragorn II: Aragorn need not die with Boromir, as he did not in the original story. Assume that Boromir comes back after his fight with Frodo, and when everyone goes crazy, Aragorn and Boromir again split. One dies, the other gets to go to Rohan.

Again assume somehow Aragorn can replace Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. Theoden/Eomer/Eowyn/Merry (and now Pippin) head for Minas Tirith while Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas do the same via Paths of the Dead.

One might think that the story could change in that Pippin is now a knight of Rohan and somehow like Merry accompanies the Rohirrim on their journey. As he then would not be a servant of Denethor (and Gandalf's with Frodo), we wouldn't get to peak in on what the Steward was doing.

At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry and Pippin could aid Eowyn against the Witch King (assume that as he was going to enter the city the horns blow, and he goes off to fight the Rohirrim irregardless of Gandalf's presence - as some posters believe). This, however, would mean that we would lose Faramir - no one covers his retreat, but even if he survives that his dad burns him alive - which is bad for Eowyn unless she then took a liking for Imrahil.

Or...

Gandalf, when traveling with Frodo and Sam, sees the Witch King leave Minas Morgul, tells Frodo that he is needed elsewhere, and so proceeds the Army of Morgul Vale to Gondor. He could still save Faramir's retreat, face off against the WK at the Gate, but without Pippin to stop him, he would pursue the WK, possibly saving Theoden but Faramir gets cooked by his father.

Unless...Beregond, in a completely nutty moment, leaves his post and gets word to Gandalf, who then saves Faramir.

And as for Gollum - as in Moria, he is going to pursue the Ring wherever it goes, whether overtly or covertly, and so irregardless of Gandalf, Gollum will be there at the end.

This is getting so speculative that my brain is starting to ache...

AragornII · 02-24-2005, 07:43 PM

OK, assuming that they do the same arrangement that they did in the books, Aragorn and Sam go after Frodo, Legolas and Gimli go after Merry and Pippin, and Boromir goes for Merry and Pippin too, who would Gandalf go with? I would assume that he and Sam would go for Frodo, leaving Aragorn free to hunt for Merry and Pippin. So, if Aragorn decides to go alone, he still has a better chance of saving Boromir. Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

alatar · 02-24-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AragornII

Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there.

Agreed. However, maybe Gandalf would have seen Boromir's heart, and so tried to separate him from the temptation of the Ring even earlier. Maybe Gandalf, Sam and Frodo break the Fellowship in Lothlorien?

Quote:

alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer.

Again I would have to agree. Assume that I'm not 'in' the story but the author, then I could make it all work.

Quote:

Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story.

Assume that Treebeard acts a little less hasty - and I think that you're confusing the movie with the books (where are we anyway?

). If memory serves, Treebeard sees Gandalf the White but does not speak with him, and so Treebeard makes his own judgment regarding the Hobbits. Again, without Gandalf, assume that Saruman is locked in Orthanc and Treebeard is at the door. If no one (i.e. Gandalf, Aragorn, etc) shows up after Isengard is flooded, then there's no Palantir for Aragorn, but except for Saruman communicating with Sauron, that part of the story doesn't change that much.

Isn't life better with Gandalf 'dying' on the Bridge?

You make valid points, and I appreciate your questions - I haven't worked this hard at spinning a tale since I had to explain to my parents why I was out all night!

Glirdan · 02-25-2005, 03:26 PM

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this. And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Glirdy

alatar · 02-25-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this.

Agreed, but not sure how much 'freedom' I have or should restrict myself to in regards to the story ("...and then they met the Tie-Dyed Wizard...").

Quote:

And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!!

Cool on science. Learn how to be skeptical - how to test assumptions/hypotheses - as it will serve you well.

02-23-2005, 06:09 PM	#1
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	That's anegative thought bookworm, (no offense) but a really interesting theory. As to your question alatar, what I mean is in your really long post, you failed to mention what you thought of Ewoyn killing the WK and Theoden dying by the WK. I would like to know what happens to them in your theory. Glirdy __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

02-23-2005, 07:59 PM	#2
AragornII Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Concluding negotiations Posts: 103	Another point to the ever lengthening debate... Also, alatar, if Gandalf had sent Aragorn to go after the hobbits while he and Sam go for Frodo, how does Boromir still die? Wouldn't either Aragorn die with him (and so ending the return of the king theme) or Boromir lives and he and Aragorn defeat the Orcs? Thne once again, nobody would help Rohan and they would be gone and Saruman would still be alive and well and then... you know, all that stuff I said before. __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king.

02-24-2005, 07:43 PM	#4
AragornII Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Concluding negotiations Posts: 103	OK, assuming that they do the same arrangement that they did in the books, Aragorn and Sam go after Frodo, Legolas and Gimli go after Merry and Pippin, and Boromir goes for Merry and Pippin too, who would Gandalf go with? I would assume that he and Sam would go for Frodo, leaving Aragorn free to hunt for Merry and Pippin. So, if Aragorn decides to go alone, he still has a better chance of saving Boromir. Let's just say that Boromir has a better chance of living if Gandalf is there. alatar, I don't think that Aragorn could have filled Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. He doesn't have the fast horse that can bring Eomer in time. He was essential in being at the actual battle, and couldn't have filled Gandalf's place as Eomer(or Erkenbrand)-bringer. Another point... if Gandalf hadn't been in the forest to tell Treebeard that Merry and Pippin were hobbits what would have happened to them? They might have been killed, and then Saruman is still out there because Merry and Pippin never roused the Ents to attack Isengard. What would the consequences been of letting Saruman live? Possibly a revival of Isengard and just Helm's Deep later in the story. __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king.

02-25-2005, 03:26 PM	#6
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	You're probably right alatar, it would be better if Gandalf would have 'died' at the bridge, but it's cool just to speculate about this. And your right again, I haven't had to think this hard about stuff since I was in Science class last year!!!!!!!! Glirdy __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

02-24-2005, 10:45 AM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	bookworm, I would like to see how Galadriel and the Galadhrim would fare against the Balrog. Note that the Balrog was there (possibly sleeping at times) since the War of Wrath. If it had an itching to take on Galadriel, then it had more than enough opportunities to do so, but evidence shows that it did not. On the another thread it was discussed regarding what the Balrog would have done if it had crossed the Bridge - pursue FOTR beyond Moria or halt at the first gate, content with driving the FOTR out. Also note that Sauron never overthrew Lothlorien, and would need the Ring to be assured of victory against Galadriel. Glirdy and Aragorn II: Aragorn need not die with Boromir, as he did not in the original story. Assume that Boromir comes back after his fight with Frodo, and when everyone goes crazy, Aragorn and Boromir again split. One dies, the other gets to go to Rohan. Again assume somehow Aragorn can replace Gandalf's role in Rohan/Orthanc. Theoden/Eomer/Eowyn/Merry (and now Pippin) head for Minas Tirith while Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas do the same via Paths of the Dead. One might think that the story could change in that Pippin is now a knight of Rohan and somehow like Merry accompanies the Rohirrim on their journey. As he then would not be a servant of Denethor (and Gandalf's with Frodo), we wouldn't get to peak in on what the Steward was doing. At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry and Pippin could aid Eowyn against the Witch King (assume that as he was going to enter the city the horns blow, and he goes off to fight the Rohirrim irregardless of Gandalf's presence - as some posters believe). This, however, would mean that we would lose Faramir - no one covers his retreat, but even if he survives that his dad burns him alive - which is bad for Eowyn unless she then took a liking for Imrahil. Or... Gandalf, when traveling with Frodo and Sam, sees the Witch King leave Minas Morgul, tells Frodo that he is needed elsewhere, and so proceeds the Army of Morgul Vale to Gondor. He could still save Faramir's retreat, face off against the WK at the Gate, but without Pippin to stop him, he would pursue the WK, possibly saving Theoden but Faramir gets cooked by his father. Unless...Beregond, in a completely nutty moment, leaves his post and gets word to Gandalf, who then saves Faramir. And as for Gollum - as in Moria, he is going to pursue the Ring wherever it goes, whether overtly or covertly, and so irregardless of Gandalf, Gollum will be there at the end. This is getting so speculative that my brain is starting to ache...