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Old 02-24-2005, 06:24 AM   #1
Faramir
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Radagast did aid alittle,sending the eagles and all....
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Old 02-24-2005, 08:31 AM   #2
Maédhros
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The Blue Wizards

From The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The Five Wizards
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Another brief discussion, headed 'Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations', arose from my father's consideration of the matter of Glorfindel, as is seen from the opening words: 'Was in fact Glorfindel one of them?' He observed that he was 'evidently never supposed to be when The Lord of the Rings was written', adding that there is no possibility that some of them were Eldar 'of the highest order of power', rather than Maiar. The text then continues with the passage given in Unfinished Tales, p. 394, beginning 'We must assume that they were all Maiar ...'; but after the words with which that citation ends ('... chosen by the Valar with this in mind') there stands only 'Saruman the most powerful', and then it breaks off, unfinished. Beside these last words is a pencilled note: 'Radagast a name of Mannish (Anduin vale) origin – but not now clearly interpretable' (see Unfinished Tales p. 390 and note 4).
On the reverse of the page are some notes which I described in Unfinished Tales as uninterpretable, but which with longer scrutiny I have been largely able to make out. One of them reads as follows:

No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. … (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of 'the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188). Another note is even rougher and more difficult:

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

At the words in the citation from this text in Unfinished Tales (p. 394) 'Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the Five Wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman' my father wrote: 'A note made on their names and functions seems now lost, but except for the names their general history and effect on the history of the Third Age is clear.' Conceivably he was thinking of the sketched-out narrative of the choosing of the Istari at a council of the Valar (Unfinished Tales p. 393), in which the Two Wizards (or 'the Blue Wizards', Ithryn Luin) were named Alatar and Pallando.
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:36 AM   #3
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Regarding the issue of Radagast's and Saruman's respective "failures", I think something I posted in one of the chapter by chapter discussions is relevant:

Quote:
. . . it seems that often when we are presented with a natural extreme and an artificial extreme we are also given a sort of happy medium. For example, Saruman is artificial, Radagast is natural, and Gandalf is the ideal balance. Others that occur to me:

Aule (artifice), Ulmo (nature), Manwe (balance)

Feanor (artifice), Finarfin (nature), Fingolfin (balance) (in this case we also have Fingon and Finrod, just a shade to the artificial and natural sides, respectively)

Noldor (artifice), Teleri (nature), Vanyar (balance)
No time to elaborate, alas - but I would say that Saruman and Radagast each failed (though in very different ways and to very different degrees) by erring on one or the other side of the balance between Art and Nature.
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Old 02-14-2006, 07:22 PM   #4
Elu Ancalime
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but I would say that Saruman and Radagast each failed
Since Sauruman went bad all the way, and Radagast seemed to only have a case of ADD, it think what happened after would be the defining statement: Radagast's spirit was allowed to reenter Valinor, or at least had the potential. Now, then Radagast would either have to go to the Havens (which we should be able to rule out) or have been killed (or possibly died from greif like the elves did???) So ruling out him being slain, something might have happened like this: Many of his animal friends died, and species died out, (eagles became lesser) and so he went sad and 'let go.' I think he would be allowed back to Valinor. Melian was let back in no question, right? So even though Aman was taken from the circles of the world, i think him being an Ainu he could let his spirit go back.
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Old 06-12-2006, 10:56 PM   #5
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I have some things to add to this old discussion.

I don't believe that any were destined to fail as Firefoot suggested. I just don't see the need and point in sending somebody if there is no hope in success. Manwe had the most forsight and knew to send Gandalf and Cirdan obviously agreed, but this doesn't mean that Saruman couldn't have succeeded also. There was hope for him even at the end, else Gandalf would not have returned for him. He knew the hope was slim but he returned on that 'fools hope' to see if he could help return Saruman to a degree of his former greatness and make him faithful, a bit diminished, but faithful in the end. That failed however it illustrates that none of the Istari were destined to fail.

Radagast's failing was not in his love and care of animals, rather in his apathy. He just didn't care enough, he meant well but didn't do everything required for success. The comparision between Radagast and Sauruman is equivalent to the difference between a sin of omission and a sin of commission.

Radagast could be favorable compared to ents that Treebeard describes as becoming more tree-like. They are apathetic and loose the vision and drive and become more tree-like; Radagast, in my opinion, would become more mortal like in his apathy, he wouldn't cross the ocean to Valinor as he is dwindling and dimishing in his knowledge and prior greatness. I think he would remain in Middle-earth a mere shadow of what he became continually tending to his micro-environment without concerning himself with the goings on of the world around him. He wouldn't die but wouldn't grow.
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Old 06-16-2006, 04:35 AM   #6
Lindale
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I thought Yavanna sent Radagast because she seemed to know that he had the most love for her works. Anyway in this sense Radagast seemed to have both failed and suceeded--he failed to ammend all (plant and animal) hurts of ME, but he did become friends of some of them.

And though Radagast indirectly aided Gandalf and Co., he did help in his own little way...
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Originally Posted by Faramir
Radagast did aid alittle,sending the eagles and all....
hehe...
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Old 06-17-2006, 07:01 AM   #7
SarumanCymraeg
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Even though Radagast can be deemed to failure, it has been suggested (although I'm not sure if Tolkien himself said so explicitly) that Radagast was responsible for the Eagles' coming at certain appropriate times (such as the Battle of the Morannon and Five Armies).

Of the Blue Wizards, Tolkien came to theorise that they did not, in fact, fail in their mission, but were fundamental in helping some in the East resist Sauron. If they had not gone East, then Sauron's influence there would be much stronger and he would be able to muster a much stronger army to conquer the West.
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