Battles of the late Third Age

[Saurreg]

Rumil, I think now's a good time for you to steer this thread onto a new discussion of you're still interested in doing so.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tend to agree it's time to move on to another battle.

As for woodelves (silvan elves) being comparatively lightly armed, from UT:

The Silvan Elves were hardy and valliant, but ill-equipped with armour and weapons in comarison with the Eldar of the West; also they were independent, and not disposed to place themselves under the supreme command of Gil-Galad. Their losses were thus more grevious than they need have been, even in that terrible war. Malgalad and more than half his following perished in the great battle of the Dagorlad, being cut off from the main host and driven into the Dead marshes. Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-Galad had given the signal for the advance.

And I believe that woodelves were so severely decimated in the First Battle of Beleriand that they were largely bystanders in later Beleriand wars.

[Kuruharan]

For example if a quick violent dash is needed, the greater strides of the towering Dunedain would give them an advantage over dwarves.

Actually, I do disagree with this. In a short charge the dwarves would have a lower center of gravity and with their greater strength they would have a much easier time of crashing into the enemy line and knocking their enemies to the ground and chopping them into itty bitty bits. They would not have to worry as much about the longer reach of some of their enemies because of the quality of their armor.

The Perisian Epigoni was still in an embryonic stage.

Ah, okay. I wasn’t sure about that.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

Eomer is definitely up next, but I think I need to type it up in Word and paste in later as the post seems to be turning complicated at the mo. Anyway, I thought Saurreg raised some nice points about Sarman's army. I agree that they showed some tactical sophistication, the pikes and trenches are exactly the right way to fend off cavalry as long as they're not outflanked.

I'm wondering if these pikemen were a) Dunlendings, and therefore allies of Saruman, probably led by their own cheiftains or b) troops maintained solely by Saruman. I think its revealing that at Helm's Deep the Dunlendings cry out in a 'foreign' language, but the ruffians at the scouring of the Shire certainly speak the common tongue. (In fact a very common tongue!). I wonder if Saruman recruited and trained a reasonably large number of men, perhaps instructing them in language as well as tactics. From these some may have been selected for spying duties up the Greenway, others trained as pikemen and some remained as Saruman's trusted gate guards. Perhaps some were even desceded from the old Gondorian garrison of Orthanc. Presumably Orthanc would always have had a garrison of some sort after its re-occupation by Saruman and a human force would have been more acceptable in case visitors dropped by, before the orcish army was revealed to the world.

Its also a big shame that we only get to see one of Saruman's 'underlings', Grima Wormtongue. There must have been 'generals' sent out with the army. From Grima, maybe we can conclude that although corrupted, they were certainly not without intellgence. I'd also imagine some sort of 'apprentice sorcerors' to set off the technically complex 'fires of Orthanc', though I'm getting ahead of myself here!

[Kuruharan]

troops maintained solely by Saruman...Perhaps some were even desceded from the old Gondorian garrison of Orthanc.

I think considering their weapons they would almost have to be Saruman's Own Pike Regiment. I always pictured them as being human. I never really considered where they came from. However, they were evidently not numerous because they are never mentioned again (although that is evidently where Jackson got the idea). Their lack of numbers as well as their equipment makes it appear to me that they were probably some of the old people of Isengard who had lived there for generations.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

[T]hey were probably some of the old people of Isengard who had lived there for generations. (Kuru)

I agree. As I recall the inhabitants of Isengard by the time it went under Saruman's stewardship had much Dunlendish blood.

[Saurreg]

I for one tend to think of the phalanx contigent as a unit of Dunlendings specially organized, equiped and trained to repel cavalry.

If memory serves (it seldom does now), the Dunlending has had contact with the Rohirrim and relationships between both people were a wee bit hostile. Thus if Saruman needed a human look in his army, the Dunlendings would be the best candidates. Or that was needed for the walled up tide of bad feelings to flow was a little push and Saruman could have done that. As Erkenbrand explained to the captives at the foot of Helmsdeep, they were misled by Saruman and I dare say it was due to their prolonged bias and hatred to the horse-tamers.

As for the equipment and tactics, both could have been bestowed upon by Saruman or not. Stephen Dando-Collins stated in his book Caesar's Legion" that when the Helvetii attacked, they made use of the Greek phalanx. A classic case of monkey see, monkey do. The dunlendings could also have done so, either from the memories of some elders who had seen phalanx in action or have heard stories of how moving pikes mowed down everything before it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the longer the pike, the lesser chance a horseman can get to you and that if every pikemen cluster together and point their pike tips in the same direction and advance, the chances of sucess are much higher for say a lone naked fanatic with an axe.

That said, I will not discount the fact Saruman might have his orcs round up a motley crue and have them taken to him. He'll look at the bunch, stroke his beard and say,

"Alright then! You see those big sticks laying on the ground there? Yes, those. Now I want every single one of you to pick up a stick. No! Not those twigs at your feet! I meant THOSE sticks over there! Yes, good... Now I want you to form a rectangle, sixteen a column and ten per row. What's that Michael? You don't know what's a rectangle? Billy? You're confused between the difference columns and rows. Yer Valars... (Barks a curt command to a group of uruks chatting around the water dispenser, taps foot impatiently) Now that is what I want. Now do as the Uruks just did. No Paul, you don't need to go growling and beating your chest, just go line up! Ok! You are now in a rectangle. No Jason! You don't go around giving hi-fives and handshakes, we're not over yet! Now I want the first four rows to point the sharpened ends of your big sticks forwards. What's that Billy? You still... Nevermind! The first four rows start with Andy and ends with Mac! You see that Billy? That's the first four rows! Now the rest of you tilt your sticks a little forward. Yes good. What's that Mac? You cannot point your stick forward because you'll impale the man before you and you don't want to impale him because you're a nice guy! Ok, just hold your stick over his shoulder. There! Now I want all of you to walk slowly towards that uruk over there. Nice and slow! Don't run Andy! WALK! Yes! Yes! Good... Now when you see those big bad strawheads and their horses, this is what you do. You pick up your big stick, form a rectangle and walk towards the strawheads together. Understand? Capisch? Good! Any questions? What's that Jason? Yes, you can go congratulate yourselves now!"