Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Makar]

What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero.

That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

[Shelob]

Not always Fordim, Perhaps 'tis true that in longer tales the hero meets with a "now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past" but it's not always so in shorter tales.

Orpheus for one descends into hell (Hades for him though) and returns without meeting any who went before...

When Orpheus' wife, Eurydice, was killed by the bite of a serpent, he went down to the underworld to bring her back. His songs were so beautiful that Hades finally agreed to allow Eurydice to return to the world of the living. However, Orpheus had to meet one condition: he must not look back as he was conducting her to the surface. Just before the pair reached the upper world, Orpheus looked back, and Eurydice slipped back into the netherworld once again. (From Here)

I don't know how well that's applicable to Lord of the Rings...but it's still worth considering...


Another way to look at it could be that Frodo does meet a fallen hero, just one who's not died yet, and that this fallen hero is usefull...just not in terms of guidance. When one considers Gollum as the 'fallen hero' it almost works...he is from before, he's just not 'dead', and he doesn't give useful guidance but without him everything would have been for naught and Frodo would have failed...

[Gurthang]

You could make a push to say that Gandalf received guidance after he went down and up and died. But in this case, he had already been down and had come back, so he didn't meet anyone while he was at 'hell'. And I don't know if he met a dead hero while he was dead. Still, he did go to another world and was given counsel before returning.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Makar

What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.

This is a very good point. I often wonder if the symbolism of Moria is intended to be similar to the idea of Dante's levels of Hell. Moria has halls and levels, it has it's own 'satan' in the figure of the Balrog, and demons in the form of the Orcs, and it is clearly a place where untold suffering has happened. I'm sure that as a Catholic and having gone through a classical, grammar school type education, that Tolkien would have been more than aware of Dante. Certainly, even if he was not consciously drawing a link, then the idea of this would stay in the mind as it is all very lurid. I wonder if it says anything in any of the books - alas I have not the time to look this up thoroughly this morning. But Gandalf's fall in Moria is an excellent example of someone entering the underworld, in the classical sense of the underworld.

Originally Posted by Fordim

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero.

That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Good question! My take is that perhaps as Tolkien preferred the Northern myths to the classical ones, he did not necessarily follow the 'rules' associated with classical mythology.

There's another level (sorry) to the idea of descending into hell and re-emerging from it. The idea of descending to hell is vey much a Christian one, but what was there before Christianity? The idea of the Underworld voyage was still very much in existence. One of the theories about burial chambers is that they could have a dual use and members of the clan/tribe would enter these and take mental journeys into the underworld - whether through use of psychotropic substances, meditation or simply force of belief. Newgrange was said to be a dual purpose tomb. But there are also underground tunnels called Fogou, particularly common in Cornwall, which seem to serve little purpose and it is mooted that people would enter these tiny spaces and creep beneath the earth in order to enter the underworld.

This to me links to the Hobbits' experience in the Barrow. Here they very much enter the underworld, they are even dressed in finery as though they are heroes themselves. There is the very real threat of sacrifice, and they meet with a figure from the underworld. I love this whole episode as it is so powerful and symbolic. And Frodo of course becomes the hero of the piece by challenging this underworld figure and returning to the outer world.

So I think there are several descents into hell and many sacrifices before we get to the ultimate descent and sacrifice, that at Mount Doom. And even this is interesting, as it involves two figures, both Frodo and Gollum. Their ends are almost mirror images of each other. Both are destroyed physically and mentally. Yet only one receives his 'heavenly reward'. And this is odd, because it is the one who gives up his physical being, Gollum, who does not (as far as we know) receive a spiritual reward.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

The point is that there has to be a challenge that makes success just that much sweeter, or actually worth trying.

I remember my Economics teacher saying that "for a test to be genuine, there should always be a possibility that you will not make it." Needless to say, he makes totally brain-wringing exams that bring out the worst in our grades. But sooner or later, we'll realize (as I am about to) that these tests would make college Econ a piece of cake for us. Or so I hope.

That's just the thing that all the characters went through. For a moment in "Hell" they'll learn more than they ever will in ordinary, everyday experiences. Take Aragorn, for instance. If he decided not to go through the Paths of the Dead, he would probably not exhibit such leadership skills as he did in the Battle of the Pelennor. It is definitely easier to command an army of your kinsmen than one of ghosts. And I'm sure he was able to utilize what he has gained from these experiences in his reign.

Originally Posted by Fordim

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past...So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero. That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Taking my previous example, do we not consider the king of the army as a "fallen hero"? After all, he was (probably) a noble and valiant king once. It was his wrong decision that made him fall. Now, he's an essential character that stopped Aragorn from becoming a "fallen hero" himself. At the same time, he pulled himself and his army out of the state of being fallen; they remain only as heroes as they helped win the war.

Excellent thread, Lush.

[Lush]

Thanks for the contributions, guys.

The Gollum thing is what really gets to me in all of this.

Yet only one receives his 'heavenly reward'. And this is odd, because it is the one who gives up his physical being, Gollum, who does not (as far as we know) receive a spiritual reward.

Actually I, for some reason, always envisioned that Gollum got his peace at last. Hence the fact that he falls in together with his Precious. At the point of his death he is corrupted beyond repair and it is as if the only way for him to finally end the torture is to die alongside the Ring.

This is why Mordor strikes me as a very interesting idea of Hell (or Hell-on-earth, perhaps, is more appropriate). It's certainly not a place where one can or should "abandon all hope" or anything like that in the Dante vein; and just like in the classical legends, it is still a place where one must achieve a certain task, but the idea behind it all, as it has been mentioned, is one of sacrifice. Which is not what the Greeks seemed to have had in mind at all (Odysseus sacrificing a sheep in Tiresias' honour notwithstanding ).

But what is the ultimate hell in Tolkien's creation? Is it, in fact, Mordor? Or does an ultimate, metaphysical hell even exist?