Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Essex, I think that you missed my point. In the movie, Gandalf did not have a chance to go after the WK - Shadowfax can't fly, and accepting PJ's version of ME, I'm not sure that that's a battle that Gandalf would have sought out. If we take it at 'screen' value, Gandalf was in fear of the WK.

What I was trying to say that in PJ's world, Gandalf leaves the front line of battle (where he may have been of some effect) to go and save Faramir. To me that is silly as if all of Minas Tirith were to fall, what good would have Gandalf's act been?

Tolkien, as you state, made this all make sense.

[Essex]

You need to explain what the difference is in Gandalf saving Faramir from the film to the book? I can see none. You say that movie Gandalf could not go after the Witch King. Why not, and what has that got to do with the price of fish anyway?

Please explain to me your reasoning behind it. You say Gandalf left the front line of battle in the film to save Faramir. He did so in the book as well.

PS The witch king got back on his winged beast again to confront theoden. He only got on his horse so he could go through the gates of Minas Tirith as it's first ever enemy to pass through.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

You need to explain what the difference is in Gandalf saving Faramir from the film to the book? I can see none. You say that movie Gandalf could not go after the Witch King. Why not, and what has that got to do with the price of fish anyway?

Thought that I did . In the book, Gandalf meets the WK at the main gate. In the movie, it's up somewhere near the seventh circle. In the book, no enemy enters the city. In the movie it's a deluge, and I think that they go up to at least the sixth circle. In the book the noncombatants have been evacuated. In the movie they are running for their lives just in front of (and sometimes not) the soldiers' retreat. In the books, Gandalf could exit the city to help the battle on the field, yet decides to go and save Faramir. In the movie Gandalf leaves the front of the battle (deserting soldiers and noncombatants to their fate) to go and save Faramir.

Hopefully that's more clear. In one version Gandalf has the choice to engage combat or save Faramir, in the other he has the choice to disengage and save.

And as you well know, I think that book-Gandalf would have chased the WK whereas the movie-Gandalf seemed to be in fear of the same - one might say more fearful than when confronting the Balrog - and so I don't see PJ's Gandalf pursuing the WK. First, how? It was tongue in cheek before, but who would Gandalf get o the field of battle now that the lower part of the city was overrun? Also, with staff gone he had no ranged attack.

Please explain to me your reasoning behind it. You say Gandalf left the front line of battle in the film to save Faramir. He did so in the book as well.

In think that the 'engagement' part is the difference.

PS The witch king got back on his winged beast again to confront theoden. He only got on his horse so he could go through the gates of Minas Tirith as it's first ever enemy to pass through.

Again I was referring to the movies. Still, I would have loved to have seen the WK riding through the gate as described.

[Essex]

I can now see your point. A fair opinion, but here's my 2 cents:

Gandalf (in both film and book) knows that people will die because of his actions in leaving the witch king and going to try and save Faramir.

Pippin: Can't you save Faramir?
Gandalf: Maybe I can, but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other hhelp can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this

So even, as you point out, Gandalf has not yet physically 'engaged', he still knows that by not engaging there and then, lives will be lost. In both book and film, Gandalf makes a sacrifice.

I think Tolkien has this happen for a number of reasons, one of them being the feeling it brings up (in me anyway) of why does he do this? why does he try to save one (or two) lives and sacrifice many more? Because this is what happens sometimes in the real world. many people may be sacrificed to save a more 'greater' or 'higher ' person. Most people on this site come from the usa maybe? therefore if a person in a security detail in the white house had to save either the President or a group of people, I put it to you that he would save the President. Faramir was technically the preson in charge of Minas Tirith and Gondor at this point because of Denethor's descent into Madness, so he was fairly high up.

PS The enemy had entered the City as soon as the WK rode through the gates

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf (in both film and book) knows that people will die because of his actions in leaving the witch king and going to try and save Faramir. So even, as you point out, Gandalf has not yet physically 'engaged', he still knows that by not engaging there and then, lives will be lost. In both book and film, Gandalf makes a sacrifice.

Agreed, yet the sacrifice in the book is unknown until later. In the movie it's pretty visible who is going to feel the bite. Also, in PJ's world, Gandalf is of lesser stature than in the books, and so as I think that you may have stated in one of our many discussions that Gandalf acted like a good captain - he wasn't the leader of all of the free peoples as in the books. This captain had more than enough work right in front of him as the orcs and trolls were his match.

The book Gandalf sought bigger game.

I think Tolkien has this happen for a number of reasons, one of them being the feeling it brings up (in me anyway) of why does he do this? why does he try to save one (or two) lives and sacrifice many more? Because this is what happens sometimes in the real world. many people may be sacrificed to save a more 'greater' or 'higher ' person. Most people on this site come from the usa maybe? therefore if a person in a security detail in the white house had to save either the President or a group of people, I put it to you that he would save the President. Faramir was technically the preson in charge of Minas Tirith and Gondor at this point because of Denethor's descent into Madness, so he was fairly high up.

Understand your point, but Denethor was still in charge and Faramir was dead/dying and out of the battle, at least to movie-Gandalf's knowledge. Wasn't Faramir a bit nutty as he tried to commit suicide by orc?

So in the process of rescuing Faramir (one in the plus column), Gandalf abandons those in the lower levels to the orcs/trolls (a few in the minus). Then, for some reason PJ has Gandalf spur Shadowfax at Denethor, adding yet another to the minus list - and wouldn't that be fun to explain to Faramir?

And would not Gandalf sacrifice himself first, as he did on the bridge, to slow the advance? It's just the more I thought about it the more it seemed that Gandalf was 'running,' and you know how kindly I take to PJ disparaging my man Gandalf...

PS The enemy had entered the City as soon as the WK rode through the gates

As usual, I will have to take your word on that until I get my books back. Cheers.

[Essex]

Alatar, you need to go out and get another set of the books!

In rode the Lord of the Nazgul. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

[The Saucepan Man]

I was reading Letter #210 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien, which is a lengthy (and highly critical) commentary dating from June 1958 on the script for a proposed film of LotR (which, in the event, went unmade). It is a highly entertaining read and gives a great insight into Tolkien's approach to the filmic treatment of his work (which is refreshingly realistic). Although the script in question appears to be far more at odds with the book than Jackson and co's script, it is nevertheless clear from this letter that there are a great many aspects of Jackson's films that he would have disliked.

But the following passage seems particulary relevant to this thread, especially with regard to the criticisms made of the apparent discrepancy between the film portrayal of the Witch-king's powers at Weathertop and his powers at the Pelennor. The passage follows on from Tolkien's expressed annoyance at the script for having Aragorn lead the Hobbits away from Bree at night, which he sees as entirely the opposite of what Aragorn would do in the circumstances:

[The Black Riders'] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.

This would appear to support my theory that the Witch-king is given a "power-up" of sorts by Sauron prior to leading his armies into battle, and this is something that the film captures quite well, I think, in the scene in Minas Morgul when the Witch-king first rides out on his Fell Beast.

So, in both the book and the films, the Witch-king of Weathertop is a different proposition from the Witch-king at the Pelennor. Whether this will make his breaking of Gandalf's staff in the film any more credible to Tolkien fans is unlikely, but it addresses the apparent inconsistency between the portrayal of the W-K's powers in these two parts of the film trilogy.