Nobility in the books - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Formendacil · 03-07-2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If you look at the line of the dwarves of Erebor in appendix A of LOTR (unless it is simplified), Gimli and his father are the closest living relatives of Dain the King and his heir. Clearly it is not merely due to Gloin's prior knowledge of Rivendell that he was chosen as an emissary. Gimli was the "noblest" dwarf of Erebor.who could have reasonably been sent on the quest. He also had enough status among his own fold to become their lord when he removed with them to Aglarond.

Also, to build on this, Gimli is looking at inheriting a pretty sizeable fortune. Both his father and his Uncle Oin were members of Thorin's company. And while it seems that the treasure wasn't exactly split up as originally intended, all the surviving members of the company did EXTREMELY well. As near as we can tell, Gimli was Gloin's only son, and so the inheritor of his wealth. As for Oin, we are led to believe (at least, I am), that he had no offspring, and since he couldn't have carted much off to Moria, then it must have been inherited by Gloin (and thence to Gimli).

Of course, who knows whether or not Gimli was able to remove any of it to the Glittering Caves, but had he chosen to stay in Erebor, it would have been in the lap of luxury.

Rhod the Red · 05-08-2006, 09:37 AM

I am a great fan of Tolkein's work and after reading one critic's website about the book, I do agree that to some extent the book does sort of defend elitism. think about it:

- Absolute monarchies rule the 'West' nations, even The Shire(though the position of the Thain is ceremonial)

- The Istari are sent to help guide the West to fight Sauron but by doing so also turn a blind eye to the internal political structure of the societies. Right or wrong, they focus their attention on defending feudal societies.

- While the Western nations are absolutist in structure I do concede the rulers of each are not violently repressive of their subjects.

- There is no portrayel of internal dissent against the status quot, unless you include the woodmen of Dunland who side with Saruman against Rohan.

Most fantasy stories are set in feudal times, TLOTR is in the minority where internal political struggle is non-exsistant.

What do you think?

tom bombariffic · 05-09-2006, 04:18 AM

One of Tolkien's aims in writing LOTR was to create a folklore for Britain, similar to those of early Norse and Germanic European lands. That some of his languages were based on Old Norse is evident from the similarity of his languages to Old Norse; I can not read elvish but various place and character names are clearly adapted from Norse words (eg the suffix "holt" in place names, the norse word for 'wood') and some names are lifted straight out (eg the dwarf "mim", from the dwarf "mimir" in thiedrik's saga).

Most Old Norse and Old English literature was written about either royalty or gods (whether Heathen or Christian). Aside from in Iceland, very few Old Norse or Old English speakers were literate, and so those that were could gain positions of prestige by writing praise poetry for kings, or for a king's ancestors. Secondly, parchment was extremely hard to come by and very expensive, so there had to be a wealthy patron behind a poet. And thirdly, these were cultures obsessed with lineage and reputation because heroism was the greatest thing a man could be seen to have, and would be richly rewarded by a king, so the "son of- son of -" chain after names is a common feature of such literature, where people wanted their lineage to seem prestigious.

Ring-giving, drinking in the King's hall, dieing heroically - all of these are frequently recurring themes in literature of the period, to name but a few that Tolkien has adapted in his work. Given that almost all the sources he is borrowing from are written about nobility, and that writing about nobility is a tradition on Norse and Germanic folklore, it is unsurprising that he continues this tradition here.

bombariffic

(sorry if this was really incoherent and incomplete, I'm in a hurry and couldn't be bothered to start writing this again later.)

Rhod the Red · 05-09-2006, 04:41 AM

Who says it was one of his 'aims'? Not Tolkein himself surely? he just once complained that britain had no mythology. Not asserted he wrote The Lord of the Rings for it.

05-08-2006, 09:37 AM	#2
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	I am a great fan of Tolkein's work and after reading one critic's website about the book, I do agree that to some extent the book does sort of defend elitism. think about it: - Absolute monarchies rule the 'West' nations, even The Shire(though the position of the Thain is ceremonial) - The Istari are sent to help guide the West to fight Sauron but by doing so also turn a blind eye to the internal political structure of the societies. Right or wrong, they focus their attention on defending feudal societies. - While the Western nations are absolutist in structure I do concede the rulers of each are not violently repressive of their subjects. - There is no portrayel of internal dissent against the status quot, unless you include the woodmen of Dunland who side with Saruman against Rohan. Most fantasy stories are set in feudal times, TLOTR is in the minority where internal political struggle is non-exsistant. What do you think? __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-09-2006, 04:18 AM	#3
tom bombariffic Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic Posts: 196	One of Tolkien's aims in writing LOTR was to create a folklore for Britain, similar to those of early Norse and Germanic European lands. That some of his languages were based on Old Norse is evident from the similarity of his languages to Old Norse; I can not read elvish but various place and character names are clearly adapted from Norse words (eg the suffix "holt" in place names, the norse word for 'wood') and some names are lifted straight out (eg the dwarf "mim", from the dwarf "mimir" in thiedrik's saga). Most Old Norse and Old English literature was written about either royalty or gods (whether Heathen or Christian). Aside from in Iceland, very few Old Norse or Old English speakers were literate, and so those that were could gain positions of prestige by writing praise poetry for kings, or for a king's ancestors. Secondly, parchment was extremely hard to come by and very expensive, so there had to be a wealthy patron behind a poet. And thirdly, these were cultures obsessed with lineage and reputation because heroism was the greatest thing a man could be seen to have, and would be richly rewarded by a king, so the "son of- son of -" chain after names is a common feature of such literature, where people wanted their lineage to seem prestigious. Ring-giving, drinking in the King's hall, dieing heroically - all of these are frequently recurring themes in literature of the period, to name but a few that Tolkien has adapted in his work. Given that almost all the sources he is borrowing from are written about nobility, and that writing about nobility is a tradition on Norse and Germanic folklore, it is unsurprising that he continues this tradition here. bombariffic (sorry if this was really incoherent and incomplete, I'm in a hurry and couldn't be bothered to start writing this again later.) __________________ The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.

05-09-2006, 04:41 AM	#4
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	Who says it was one of his 'aims'? Not Tolkein himself surely? he just once complained that britain had no mythology. Not asserted he wrote The Lord of the Rings for it. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia