Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Essex · 03-15-2005, 02:41 AM

I ask (again) why did Tolkien write the passage with the WK entering the city and confronting Gandalf? To show that the Rohirrim SAVED THE DAY. Not to show that Gandalf could have beaten the WK or vice versa.

In the movie, PJ just takes this a level or two higher (yes, I would have rathered Gandalf not looking so 'fearful', but this was PJ's way of showing that the 'world of men' has not failed, but were about to prevail).

This is EXACTLY what this scene is in the movie AND BOOK for. To highten the tension, to ratchet it up until we hear the horns of the rohirrim who save the day. This scene is not for us to see who would win in a battle between Gandalf and the WK. THAT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE STORY.

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

So let's put this question into perspective. To me, it's at the same level of 'My dad's bigger than your dad' or 'Tom's older than Treebeard.'

davem · 03-15-2005, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman.

Just for the sake of having another argument with Essex

- Its entirely possible that Gandalf could have defeated the WK - its even possible that that was one of the reasons he was 'sent back'. The prophecy spoke only of 'no living man'. As Gandalf was not a 'living man' but (to use Tolkien's term) 'an incarnate angel', its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up. I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir & says somewhat to the effect that others will suffer because he has been called away.

( I will use this as an excuse to link to another painting by my favourite Tolkien artist, S. Juchimov)
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ru_gand...zguL_minas.jpg

Essex · 03-15-2005, 12:11 PM

Just to carry on the argument with Davem

Quote:

its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up.

Please explain where you get this reasoning from. He was facing up to the Witch King. Not, in fact, bringing him down.

and

Quote:

I have to say that in my reading Gandalf seems pretty damn annoyed that he has to leave the WK to go rescue Faramir

Absolutley. i stated that earlier. He had to possibly sacrifice the lives of many to save one. As he said - no one else could help Faramir, so he had to. Of COURSE Gandalf wanted to go after the WK. I'm not disputing that.

obloquy · 03-15-2005, 01:38 PM

That's an amazing piece, davem.

davem · 03-15-2005, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Just to carry on the argument with Davem

Quote:

its very likely that he could have brought down the WK. In fact that seems to have been exactly what he was in the process of doing when the Rohirrim turned up.

Please explain where you get this reasoning from. He was facing up to the Witch King. Not, in fact, bringing him down.

Well, as I said, its my reading of the text, but I think that it was Gandalf's intention to bring down the WK - & he surely knew the prophecy concerning him:

Quote:

When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless. But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blow in the distance without tears starting in his eyes. But now suddenly his errand returned to his memory, and he ran forward. At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate.
'Gandalf, Gandalf!' cried Pippin, and Shadowfax halted.
'What are you doing here?' said Gandalf. 'Is it not a law in the City that those who wear the black and silver must stay in the Citadel, unless their lord gives them leave?'
'He has,' said Pippin. 'He sent me away. But I am frightened. Something terrible may happen up there. The Lord is out of his mind, I think. I am afraid he will kill himself, and kill Faramir too. Can't you do something?'
Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.
''But Faramir!' cried Pippin. 'He is not dead, and they will burn him alive, if someone does not stop them.'
'Burn him alive?' said Gandalf. 'What is this tale? Be quick!'
'Denethor has gone to the Tombs,' said Pippin, 'and he has taken Faramir, and he says we are all to burn, and he will not wait, and they are to make a pyre and burn him on it, and Faramir as well. And he has sent men to fetch wood and oil. And I have told Beregond, but I'm afraid he won't dare to leave his post: he is on guard. And what can he do anyway?' So Pippin poured out his tale, reaching up and touching Gandalf's knee with trembling hands. 'Can't you save Faramir?'
'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'[/b]

Why must Gandalf go? Why does he have no time if he has no chance of defeating the WK? I still feel that Gandalf believed it was his task to defeat the WK, & that that was the only chance to avoid the deaths of 'others'. So, he clearly felt he was equal to the task...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obloquy

That's an amazing piece davem

I take it you're referring to the painting. You can see all of the illustrations here:
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/juchimov.htm

Essex · 03-16-2005, 03:21 PM

gandalf MUST help him as he says himself

Quote:

Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this.

He 'had no time' until Pippin explained the situation fully and Gandalf realised clearly what was happening.

It's another example of Sacrifice that tolkien introduces. The first few times I read the book as a kid I fretted over his decision, but as I grew up, I finally came to terms with it. No one else could help Faramir, so Gandalf felt duty bound to do so.

I compare this (although loosely) with the view a get when I see trauma teams working in hospitals (via documentaries/films etc). You see literally dozens of people fighting to save one person's life. Now this person could be a low life, nasty, good for nothing wretch, but their DUTY is to save him. It brings a warm feeling to my heart to know we have such dedicated people in the real world.

This is how I feel towards Gandalf as he leaves the WK to his own devices, and turns to save the heir of the Steward. I no longer feel any nagging doubts towards Gandalf as he pursues this aim, and forgoes his battle with the WK. I admire his stance, even though, as he says, sorrow will come of it. - Perhaps he could have saved Thedoen if he followed the WK, but then again, perhaps not....

narfforc · 03-25-2005, 10:36 AM

In Unfinished Tales (The Istari) I found the following sentences to be quite interesting: To the overthrow of Morgoth he (Manwe) sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf. Eonwe is considered to be mightier than Sauron, but his might is in arms. The Valar did not want another devasting war, so they sent back the Wise, So from the very beginning there was never going to be direct confrontation. Gandalf was sent to move peoples hearts and minds, that is exactly why the war was won, by outhinking Sauron.

We know that Gandalf was a Maia diminished, yet we are never told how much so. By clothing themselves (The Istari) in the flesh of Arda they are subject to the dimming of their knowledge and wisdom, and are confused by fears, cares and the weariness that come from that flesh. they are also told that they must forgo might. Yet in saying all this, Gandalf the Grey has been enhanced twice, firstly by the giving of Narya by Cirdan, and secondly by his elevation to Gandalf the White and being sent back with greater sanctity. Holding one of the Elven Rings of Power must account for something or it becomes a worthless piece of metal, and being sent back by The Valar with more power speaks for itself. So we come to Sauron, this incarnation (Third Age) is not the Sauron of old, he also is diminished by the fact that he passed a great deal of his power into The One Ring, something he no longer holds. This is why destroying it is so important, for if he recaims it, he also reclaims his lost power. We can only speculate as to the outcome of any meeting between these two Maia at the end of The Third Age, but I feel it would not be as one-sided as many think. First Age Sauron was deafeated by Luthien, a Half-Maia. So we are given the image of Gandalf the White as a very great power, how could the shade of a mortal hope to win that contest, it is not possible. The Witch-King is the High Nazgul, the Ringwraiths main weapons are fear (lets not think of The Spanish Inquisition), and the effect of that is lessened on those of strong heart and mind ala Gandalf and Aragorn on Weathertop. The thing that sets The Morgul Lord apart is that he is a sorcerer, yet this magic has its source in his being, and that was mortal, so it is of less power than even one of the Silvan Elves, had they have had the same knowledge.
We are told that Sauron had given The Lord of the Nazgul more power, yet this has to come from somewhere, if so then it came from Saurons already lessened being, therefore it cannot be as great has the power that The Valar has given back to Gandalf. So to have The Lord of the Nazgul break Gandalfs staff is ridiculous. The excuse that it was for the non-reading cinema public cannot be used, for it was not in the theatre version, it is only in the Extended version, I cannot believe that Jackson put this in for the benefit of us true fans, so what motivated him to think he could better the works of Tolkien.

NOOOOOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION.

07-03-2005, 06:03 PM

I think the WK was pretty scary in the book, and in the films (for his enemies that is). Though the balrog was clearly another proposition, more menacing, a larger opponent. If Gandalf could defeat the Balrog, he would be strong favourite against the WK.

We don't really see enough of Sauron in the film though, or the book. I am a big fan of him, and I could see him creating havoc in the ranks of Gondor, though he'd probably be too lazy to march so far to war, nor would there be any need for him 2 get off his thrown, unless he was forced to by the threat of Gondor, as in the last alliance battle. I'd love to see a film based on that part of ME history!!!

Anyone else agree?

03-25-2005, 10:36 AM	#7
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	In Unfinished Tales (The Istari) I found the following sentences to be quite interesting: To the overthrow of Morgoth he (Manwe) sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf. Eonwe is considered to be mightier than Sauron, but his might is in arms. The Valar did not want another devasting war, so they sent back the Wise, So from the very beginning there was never going to be direct confrontation. Gandalf was sent to move peoples hearts and minds, that is exactly why the war was won, by outhinking Sauron. We know that Gandalf was a Maia diminished, yet we are never told how much so. By clothing themselves (The Istari) in the flesh of Arda they are subject to the dimming of their knowledge and wisdom, and are confused by fears, cares and the weariness that come from that flesh. they are also told that they must forgo might. Yet in saying all this, Gandalf the Grey has been enhanced twice, firstly by the giving of Narya by Cirdan, and secondly by his elevation to Gandalf the White and being sent back with greater sanctity. Holding one of the Elven Rings of Power must account for something or it becomes a worthless piece of metal, and being sent back by The Valar with more power speaks for itself. So we come to Sauron, this incarnation (Third Age) is not the Sauron of old, he also is diminished by the fact that he passed a great deal of his power into The One Ring, something he no longer holds. This is why destroying it is so important, for if he recaims it, he also reclaims his lost power. We can only speculate as to the outcome of any meeting between these two Maia at the end of The Third Age, but I feel it would not be as one-sided as many think. First Age Sauron was deafeated by Luthien, a Half-Maia. So we are given the image of Gandalf the White as a very great power, how could the shade of a mortal hope to win that contest, it is not possible. The Witch-King is the High Nazgul, the Ringwraiths main weapons are fear (lets not think of The Spanish Inquisition), and the effect of that is lessened on those of strong heart and mind ala Gandalf and Aragorn on Weathertop. The thing that sets The Morgul Lord apart is that he is a sorcerer, yet this magic has its source in his being, and that was mortal, so it is of less power than even one of the Silvan Elves, had they have had the same knowledge. We are told that Sauron had given The Lord of the Nazgul more power, yet this has to come from somewhere, if so then it came from Saurons already lessened being, therefore it cannot be as great has the power that The Valar has given back to Gandalf. So to have The Lord of the Nazgul break Gandalfs staff is ridiculous. The excuse that it was for the non-reading cinema public cannot be used, for it was not in the theatre version, it is only in the Extended version, I cannot believe that Jackson put this in for the benefit of us true fans, so what motivated him to think he could better the works of Tolkien. NOOOOOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION. Last edited by narfforc; 03-25-2005 at 11:51 AM.

03-15-2005, 02:41 AM	#1
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	I ask (again) why did Tolkien write the passage with the WK entering the city and confronting Gandalf? To show that the Rohirrim SAVED THE DAY. Not to show that Gandalf could have beaten the WK or vice versa. In the movie, PJ just takes this a level or two higher (yes, I would have rathered Gandalf not looking so 'fearful', but this was PJ's way of showing that the 'world of men' has not failed, but were about to prevail). This is EXACTLY what this scene is in the movie AND BOOK for. To highten the tension, to ratchet it up until we hear the horns of the rohirrim who save the day. This scene is not for us to see who would win in a battle between Gandalf and the WK. THAT IS IMMATERIAL TO THE STORY. We all know that Gandalf WOULD not beat the WK because of the Prophecy. Note, this is not to say he COULD not have beaten, but WOULD not beat the WK. That is left to a hobbit and a woman. So let's put this question into perspective. To me, it's at the same level of 'My dad's bigger than your dad' or 'Tom's older than Treebeard.'

03-15-2005, 01:38 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	That's an amazing piece, davem.

07-03-2005, 06:03 PM	#8
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	I think the WK was pretty scary in the book, and in the films (for his enemies that is). Though the balrog was clearly another proposition, more menacing, a larger opponent. If Gandalf could defeat the Balrog, he would be strong favourite against the WK. We don't really see enough of Sauron in the film though, or the book. I am a big fan of him, and I could see him creating havoc in the ranks of Gondor, though he'd probably be too lazy to march so far to war, nor would there be any need for him 2 get off his thrown, unless he was forced to by the threat of Gondor, as in the last alliance battle. I'd love to see a film based on that part of ME history!!! Anyone else agree?