Let's Talk Morgoth

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Hope. There is always the HOPE of salvation, the belief that a merciful God will forgive. The only person to whom heaven is totally and utterly denied is to he who utters rejects God. To all others, there is the hope of heaven, and the hope not ending up in Hell. This is the concept of divine mercy, which goes hand in hand with that of divine justice.

Agreed. Where do non-theists fit in (i.e. do not reject God as they do not think that there even is a god)?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

After all, if only the truly unrepentant go to Hell, then surely only the great saints can be said to have come close to achieving Heaven. Here is where the Catholic dogma of Purgatory comes in. Purgatory is the place of PURGING, of cleansing the soul so that it is cleaned of sin and ready for Heaven.

Not to debate Christianity too much, but the concept of 'works' and 'purging' negate the need for Grace (and therefore the sacrifice of Christ).

Originally Posted by Formendacil

No person will be condemned to Hell for not having had the opportunity to join the Church (primitives, people who never heard of it, unborn babies, people before Christ), nor will those who have tried to lead a good life according to what they know and/or believe (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Proddies, atheists, etc... )

No offence is intended by the above, just a more or less blanket statement that Catholics believe that all people who try to lead a good life have a real hope of Heaven. Even Balrog-Wingers!

That's called 'univeralism.' Is that a Roman Catholic doctrine? I would contend that that's not found in the Christian Bible.

And what worse torture for Melkor! After fighting your whole life against Eru, Manwe etc, you now are forced to make nice and join every else in Paradise ("Sorry about the sister thing, Turin. Sorry about the sword thing at the Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth. <kisses and hugs>").

Anyway, I would have to say that Eru was not a universalist (if there is such a word) in that not all end up in Paradise. All may have the opportunity to go, yet free will allows for some not to go. Free will = choice. I've left the orcs out of all of this as we have yet to pin down the extent of their choices.

Orcs and other baddies go to the Void, and others go to some other afterlife. After Dagor Dagorath, not sure where all of the baddies will end up, but I'm sure that it won't be a party. Nonexistence?

Is the Dagor Dagorath the 'last chance to repent?' At that time can everyone elect to change sides, and after the big game, share the fate of the side of their choice? Would this pre-game time be when good-natured orcs ("he killed the villagers before he sat down to eat them - there's a mark in the plus column...") turn to Eru and by their choice are given some kind of redemption? Do they become Elves again?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. Where do non-theists fit in (i.e. do not reject God as they do not think that there even is a god)?

Not to debate Christianity too much, but the concept of 'works' and 'purging' negate the need for Grace (and therefore the sacrifice of Christ).

I would put non-theists with all others. A separate category for them is unnecessary.

Originally Posted by alatar

That's called 'univeralism.' Is that a Roman Catholic doctrine? I would contend that that's not found in the Christian Bible.

And what worse torture for Melkor! After fighting your whole life against Eru, Manwe etc, you now are forced to make nice and join every else in Paradise ("Sorry about the sister thing, Turin. Sorry about the sword thing at the Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth. <kisses and hugs>").

I think you might be misinterpreting what I said. I did NOT say that everyone will get into Paradise, only that everyone has CHANCE. It is NOT Catholic dogma that everyone will kiss, make up, and go to heaven, but Catholic doctrine does not say that people will automatically be condemned to hellfire for having been born before Jesus, in an un-evangelised society, etc, etc. Nor will people who live in accordance with God's law as best they are able, such as non-Catholic believers (ie. Jews, Protestants, Muslims, et. al) see their efforts go to waste.

That said, ultimate judgement falls on God, as does the exercise of His mercy. I do not think that all will granted mercy, but the condemnation is greater on those who KNEW what was expected of them, and still did wrong.

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, this opens up another can of worms - if Melkor hadn't rebelled, & thus created an alternative to Eru's divine plan, would one of the other Ainur have rebelled instead? What I mean is, Melkor's rebellion sets out an alternative & therefore introduces choice into the 'game'. At that point the Ainur have to decie whose wide they are on. If Melkor hadn't done that, would one of the other Ainur have started wondering about 'alternatives' & hence become 'Dark Lord' instead.

I would have to say "No. It was not NECESSARY for Arda that one of the Ainur fall and become the Dark Lord."

Even had Iluvatar gone ahead and made Arda, and none of the Ainur had rebelled, there would still be free will for the Children of Iluvatar. There would still be rules that could be broken.

The exercise of free will would still be necessary to chose to obey divine law, or to reject it in favour of self-gratification. The difference is that there would be no mighty tempter, no Dark Lord whose goal was to spread evil. Therefore, evil would not be so prevalent in Arda as it was with Melkor, and it would not have had the same dominance over Man and Elf that it does.

The possibility of rejecting Eru and His laws would remain, but it would be a much less likely thing to happen, without someone pushing it, and corrupting the matter of Arda to proneness towards discord and chaos.

Remember, this is Arda MARRED, in Tolkien's own words. Therefore, that implies that there was, or was intended to be, an Arda UNmarred. Therefore, in Iluvatar's original plan, there should have been NO Dark Lord, thus if Melkor had not gone bad, it would not have been necessary for someone else to step up to the Dark Lord plate.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Maedhros

I would like to know how can you be so sure that it was Eru's intervention and not just mere luck.

You can't - that's the point. If you could know definitely one way or the other it would have a too deterministic effect on your freedom of belief.

And did Melkor really rebelled?
Ilúvatar gave him the powers and the freedom to use them as he saw fit. It was his right to act as he saw fit, as where the other Ainur.

No, it wasn't his right to act as he saw fit - certainly he had the ability to do as he saw fit, but being able to do something is not the same thing as having the right to do it. The Nazis were able to murder 6 million jews in the death camps, but I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would argue that they had a right to do it. He was created to serve. Any powers he had came from Eru & were given with the intention that he would use them in His service. Melkor misused his 'power'. Its like, if I let you use my car to take a sick friend to the hospital, & you dump the person by the roadside, sell the car & go on holiday with the proceeds. Being in possession of the car means you have the ability to do that, but you certainly wouldn't have the right to do it.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The possibility of rejecting Eru and His laws would remain, but it would be a much less likely thing to happen, without someone pushing it, and corrupting the matter of Arda to proneness towards discord and chaos.

You've sidetracked me into wondering whether, because there is no Me Bible or Quran, 'Good' & 'evil' have to manifest in rather 'extreme' forms so that they're quite plain & understandable to everyone. There seems to be something of an absence of theologians arguing over the minutiae of their subject in Me. People only have what's in their hearts, a kind of 'innate' understanding of what is 'Good' & what is 'evil' & their experience of good & evil in the world - ie no Ten Commandments, no clearly set out 'rules', no religious imperatives (accept Jesus as your personal saviour or Else!, accept Muhammad as the final prophet of God or Else!, etc etc)

What I mean is the inhabitants of Me have to come the 'Truth' through personal judgement based on their experiences, not by accepting or rejecting the 'word of God'.

This is pure speculation & has just occurred to me, so I'm not it makes complete sense...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

What I mean is the inhabitants of Me have to come the 'Truth' through personal judgement based on their experiences, not by accepting or rejecting the 'word of God'.

This is pure speculation & has just occurred to me, so I'm not it makes complete sense...

Makes sense to me, but you might want to get a second opinion as I may be nuts...

Anyway, regarding relevation: The elves had direct access to the 'divine,' and so they have no need for faith. Galadriel was in Valinor, so what are the chances that she may have doubts regarding the existence of Manwe et al? As far as she is concerned, the Valar are 'cousins.' She knows what will happen if she were to be slain, and also what awaited her when she took the last ship.

Orcs are basically smart animals - as we have not yet produced a valid argument that would allow for them to have free will - and so there is no need for revelation. As far we know, when orcs die they become worm food. No afterlife - nothing. There is the possibility that as they are on the 'evil' side that they may suffer some punishment after all is sung and done, but this is mere speculation.

Men (and Hobbits) are somewhere in the middle. In the past there has been revelation to certain individuals, and purportedly one man (Eärendil) made a sacrifice to redeem the world or something. The elves have provided information (second hand) yet estrangement has placed doubts. The Enemy also has muddied the waters regarding Eru, the other divines, etc.

During a golden age, men were much closer to the 'source,' yet this did not remove all doubts. As the island containing evidence regarding the same was drowned in a flood, information is scant and sketchy.

Also, for men the afterlife is uncertain. Even the elves, assuming that their information is correct, do not know what happens, though the oldest tales tell of man leaving the confines of Arda, something that the other races cannot do. Melkor has added fear to this information.

Due to past screw-ups wih the elves, the Valar avoid direct contact with men, and so any additional revelation is indirect and at times open to interpretation.

So it would seem that men, having no certain knowledge or revelation, are required to take leaps of faith. One can choose to be like the elves and believe that it's all true, or live like an orc, figuring that a worm's gullet is the final destination.

I assume that this was deliberate on JRRT's part.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

Orcs are basically smart animals - as we have not yet produced a valid argument that would allow for them to have free will - and so there is no need for revelation.

I would have thought that the behaviour exhibited by the likes of Shagrat, Gorbag, Ugluk, Azog and the Great Goblin, not to mention the existence of "quasi-independent" Orcish colonies and the development of an Orcish culture of sorts (songs, distinctive weaponry etc), provide a valid basis for arguing that they (or some of them at least) were higher than animals and had a degree of free will, whether or not one actually accepts that argument.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I would have thought that the behaviour exhibited by the likes of Shagrat, Gorbag, Ugluk, Azog and the Great Goblin, not to mention the existence of "quasi-independent" Orcish colonies and the development of an Orcish culture of sorts (songs, distinctive weaponry etc), provide a valid basis for arguing that they (or some of them at least) were higher than animals and had a degree of free will, whether or not one actually accepts that argument.

I would say that they do have free will - with the exception of ever being able to choose 'good.' For my argument posted previously, I have them having already 'chosen,' and so they no longer feel the need to reconsider/repent. Still, orcs are a bit murky.

Elves would be more 'spiritual' and orcs more 'animal/physical.'

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

You've sidetracked me into wondering whether, because there is no Me Bible or Quran, 'Good' & 'evil' have to manifest in rather 'extreme' forms so that they're quite plain & understandable to everyone. There seems to be something of an absence of theologians arguing over the minutiae of their subject in Me. People only have what's in their hearts, a kind of 'innate' understanding of what is 'Good' & what is 'evil' & their experience of good & evil in the world - ie no Ten Commandments, no clearly set out 'rules', no religious imperatives (accept Jesus as your personal saviour or Else!, accept Muhammad as the final prophet of God or Else!, etc etc)

I would say that, to a certain extent, Arda DOES have Bible/Quran of sorts: the Valar, in specific, Manwe and Mandos.

Think about what the Bible is to Christians: God's inspired words and laws, given to his prophets and apostles, put into written form.

Think about what the Quran is to Muslims: God's inspired words and laws, spoken to the Prophet Muhammed, put into written form.

God (Eru's) inspired words and laws in Arda do not need to be put into written form because there are living (and undying) receptacles of His words and laws, namely the Valar, especially Manwe and Mandos. Why write down what is contained, perfect, in a mind with speech?

The Elves, living in Valinor as those with the written word did, had no need. And once they came back to middle-earth and spread the tengwar, they were in rebellion, and not likely to write up the Gospels of Manwe and Mandos. This tendency then gets passed on to the Numenoreans, and all others who inherit the true knowledge of the Valar.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Alatar

The elves had direct access to the 'divine,' and so they have no need for faith.... So it would seem that men, having no certain knowledge or revelation, are required to take leaps of faith. One can choose to be like the elves and believe that it's all true, or live like an orc, figuring that a worm's gullet is the final destination.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

God (Eru's) inspired words and laws in Arda do not need to be put into written form because there are living (and undying) receptacles of His words and laws, namely the Valar, especially Manwe and Mandos. Why write down what is contained, perfect, in a mind with speech?

The Elves, living in Valinor as those with the written word did, had no need. And once they came back to middle-earth and spread the tengwar, they were in rebellion, and not likely to write up the Gospels of Manwe and Mandos. This tendency then gets passed on to the Numenoreans, and all others who inherit the true knowledge of the Valar.

But having direct knowlege of anything negates the need for faith - you don't need to have faith in known facts. I would argue that the Elves' direct knowlege of the Valar actually takes away their freedom of thought & perhaps even restricts their creative expression - why is there no Elvish fiction? (something I've asked before). Why don't they sub create 'secondary worlds'? Men, not having direct knowlege, can speculate on different possibilities, alternative realities, whereas Elves (the High Elves specifically) simply know the way things are. Perhaps this is what leads them to seek to 'embalm' rather than attempt to change the world around them. They know too much about the way things are & the way things were/are intended to be. They work to make the world conform to Eru's blueprint because they are actually limited by their nowlege. Men, on the other hand, not having direct access to such 'facts' are free to speculate on possibilities & examine all the options.

Of course, as Aragorn says, Men must judge as they always have - there is a sense of 'right' & 'wrong' which is innate to the Eruhini, but it is a sense in Men & is not so specific that it limits what they feel there is any point in doing. Both Men & Elves are attempting (if they are true to their own deep sense of right & wrong) to do the will of Eru, but Men are freer to think 'outside the box'& so may actually bring into being new things which, while not 'outside' the scope of the original Plan, were perhaps not specifically predicted by it.

I think this is perhaps the difference between Melkor & the Eruhini - the latter, for all their failings, are attempting to conform themselves to the will of Eru (again - when they do what they know is right), whereas Melkor was attempting to subvert & change the original plan. The Eruhini willed the Right whereas Melkor willed the 'wrong'. Both may have failed in many ways (the Eruhini causing suffering & destruction, Melkor, despite himself bringing about some good ), but they would be judged on their intent.

Again, just throwing out ideas as they occur - feel free to pull them apart...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

But having direct knowlege of anything negates the need for faith - you don't need to have faith in known facts.

Although even the High Elves had only indirect knowledge of Eru. They were one step removed, so the requirement for faith on their part was limited to trusting what the Valar told them of him. All other Elves, along with Men and the other races were two or more steps (many more in the Third Age in the case of all but some of the Elves) removed.

[drigel]

Why don't they sub create 'secondary worlds'?

I would submit that Lorien would be considered a 'secondary world', created by Galadriel. Since, by the time of her coming to those woods, and the time hence, there is nothing like it in all of ME. Though it is a reflection, or memory, of an earlier unstained time, it is "something apart" from the rest of ME, and is (for lack of a better word) "removed" from the linear timeframe that those woods are surrounded by.

An expression of elvish 'faith', as it were....