General discussion about the verse material - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 03-16-2005, 09:52 PM

As I see it, the real problem is Beren and Luthien. With Turin, we have only a relatively short section for which the Lay is the best source. But for Beren and Luthien, the Lay is a far more detailed and sophisticated telling than any prose version. To omit it completely - which, I'm afraid, is something we may be forced to consider - would be a loss comparable to omitting the entire Narn or the whole of the later Tuor.

Findegil provides a good list of options in both cases, but, at the risk of oversimplifying, I would say that we have three possible fundamental strategies:

1. Use the lays more or less in their entirety wherever they are the best source.

2. Mix verse passages with prose passages.

3. Use prose only.

Option 3 by no means necessarily implies the rejection of all the material from the Lays. There is the important matter of conversion to prose to be considered. One could, in theory, go so far as to produce prose versions of the lays in full. The problem with this is twofold: first, it involves a great deal of tampering with the text and second, the style that results from a more or less direct conversion from verse tends not to be "good prose". But one could certainly envisage this technique being used on a smaller scale. I am inclined to think it a good candidate for dealing with Turin. That is, for the section where Beleg rescues Turin from the Orc camp, we could simply write a prose version of the Lay and incorporate it into the basic (prose) text.

For Beren and Luthien I am very doubtful about using the lay as the basic text. We encountered serious difficulties even with the short poems we have dealt with so far - and considering the difficulty we frequently encounter in making alterations even to prose passages, I think that the necessary modifications to the lay may prove impossibly difficult. And even were we to commit to a "pure verse" incorporation of the Geste, we must necessarily switch to prose for the sections following the escape from Angband, since they were never reached in the lay. In a sense, then, we are already, at best, mixing verse and prose.

I see problems, then, no matter what we do. Perhaps the thing to do is to pick what look like some really troublesome spots and work on them, to get an idea of how difficult it would be to work the Geste in verse form.

03-16-2005, 09:52 PM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	As I see it, the real problem is Beren and Luthien. With Turin, we have only a relatively short section for which the Lay is the best source. But for Beren and Luthien, the Lay is a far more detailed and sophisticated telling than any prose version. To omit it completely - which, I'm afraid, is something we may be forced to consider - would be a loss comparable to omitting the entire Narn or the whole of the later Tuor. Findegil provides a good list of options in both cases, but, at the risk of oversimplifying, I would say that we have three possible fundamental strategies: 1. Use the lays more or less in their entirety wherever they are the best source. 2. Mix verse passages with prose passages. 3. Use prose only. Option 3 by no means necessarily implies the rejection of all the material from the Lays. There is the important matter of conversion to prose to be considered. One could, in theory, go so far as to produce prose versions of the lays in full. The problem with this is twofold: first, it involves a great deal of tampering with the text and second, the style that results from a more or less direct conversion from verse tends not to be "good prose". But one could certainly envisage this technique being used on a smaller scale. I am inclined to think it a good candidate for dealing with Turin. That is, for the section where Beleg rescues Turin from the Orc camp, we could simply write a prose version of the Lay and incorporate it into the basic (prose) text. For Beren and Luthien I am very doubtful about using the lay as the basic text. We encountered serious difficulties even with the short poems we have dealt with so far - and considering the difficulty we frequently encounter in making alterations even to prose passages, I think that the necessary modifications to the lay may prove impossibly difficult. And even were we to commit to a "pure verse" incorporation of the Geste, we must necessarily switch to prose for the sections following the escape from Angband, since they were never reached in the lay. In a sense, then, we are already, at best, mixing verse and prose. I see problems, then, no matter what we do. Perhaps the thing to do is to pick what look like some really troublesome spots and work on them, to get an idea of how difficult it would be to work the Geste in verse form.