Let's Talk Morgoth

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

You've sidetracked me into wondering whether, because there is no Me Bible or Quran, 'Good' & 'evil' have to manifest in rather 'extreme' forms so that they're quite plain & understandable to everyone. There seems to be something of an absence of theologians arguing over the minutiae of their subject in Me. People only have what's in their hearts, a kind of 'innate' understanding of what is 'Good' & what is 'evil' & their experience of good & evil in the world - ie no Ten Commandments, no clearly set out 'rules', no religious imperatives (accept Jesus as your personal saviour or Else!, accept Muhammad as the final prophet of God or Else!, etc etc)

I would say that, to a certain extent, Arda DOES have Bible/Quran of sorts: the Valar, in specific, Manwe and Mandos.

Think about what the Bible is to Christians: God's inspired words and laws, given to his prophets and apostles, put into written form.

Think about what the Quran is to Muslims: God's inspired words and laws, spoken to the Prophet Muhammed, put into written form.

God (Eru's) inspired words and laws in Arda do not need to be put into written form because there are living (and undying) receptacles of His words and laws, namely the Valar, especially Manwe and Mandos. Why write down what is contained, perfect, in a mind with speech?

The Elves, living in Valinor as those with the written word did, had no need. And once they came back to middle-earth and spread the tengwar, they were in rebellion, and not likely to write up the Gospels of Manwe and Mandos. This tendency then gets passed on to the Numenoreans, and all others who inherit the true knowledge of the Valar.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Alatar

The elves had direct access to the 'divine,' and so they have no need for faith.... So it would seem that men, having no certain knowledge or revelation, are required to take leaps of faith. One can choose to be like the elves and believe that it's all true, or live like an orc, figuring that a worm's gullet is the final destination.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

God (Eru's) inspired words and laws in Arda do not need to be put into written form because there are living (and undying) receptacles of His words and laws, namely the Valar, especially Manwe and Mandos. Why write down what is contained, perfect, in a mind with speech?

The Elves, living in Valinor as those with the written word did, had no need. And once they came back to middle-earth and spread the tengwar, they were in rebellion, and not likely to write up the Gospels of Manwe and Mandos. This tendency then gets passed on to the Numenoreans, and all others who inherit the true knowledge of the Valar.

But having direct knowlege of anything negates the need for faith - you don't need to have faith in known facts. I would argue that the Elves' direct knowlege of the Valar actually takes away their freedom of thought & perhaps even restricts their creative expression - why is there no Elvish fiction? (something I've asked before). Why don't they sub create 'secondary worlds'? Men, not having direct knowlege, can speculate on different possibilities, alternative realities, whereas Elves (the High Elves specifically) simply know the way things are. Perhaps this is what leads them to seek to 'embalm' rather than attempt to change the world around them. They know too much about the way things are & the way things were/are intended to be. They work to make the world conform to Eru's blueprint because they are actually limited by their nowlege. Men, on the other hand, not having direct access to such 'facts' are free to speculate on possibilities & examine all the options.

Of course, as Aragorn says, Men must judge as they always have - there is a sense of 'right' & 'wrong' which is innate to the Eruhini, but it is a sense in Men & is not so specific that it limits what they feel there is any point in doing. Both Men & Elves are attempting (if they are true to their own deep sense of right & wrong) to do the will of Eru, but Men are freer to think 'outside the box'& so may actually bring into being new things which, while not 'outside' the scope of the original Plan, were perhaps not specifically predicted by it.

I think this is perhaps the difference between Melkor & the Eruhini - the latter, for all their failings, are attempting to conform themselves to the will of Eru (again - when they do what they know is right), whereas Melkor was attempting to subvert & change the original plan. The Eruhini willed the Right whereas Melkor willed the 'wrong'. Both may have failed in many ways (the Eruhini causing suffering & destruction, Melkor, despite himself bringing about some good ), but they would be judged on their intent.

Again, just throwing out ideas as they occur - feel free to pull them apart...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

But having direct knowlege of anything negates the need for faith - you don't need to have faith in known facts.

Although even the High Elves had only indirect knowledge of Eru. They were one step removed, so the requirement for faith on their part was limited to trusting what the Valar told them of him. All other Elves, along with Men and the other races were two or more steps (many more in the Third Age in the case of all but some of the Elves) removed.

[drigel]

Why don't they sub create 'secondary worlds'?

I would submit that Lorien would be considered a 'secondary world', created by Galadriel. Since, by the time of her coming to those woods, and the time hence, there is nothing like it in all of ME. Though it is a reflection, or memory, of an earlier unstained time, it is "something apart" from the rest of ME, and is (for lack of a better word) "removed" from the linear timeframe that those woods are surrounded by.

An expression of elvish 'faith', as it were....

[davem]

Originally Posted by Drigel

I would submit that Lorien would be considered a 'secondary world', created by Galadriel. Since, by the time of her coming to those woods, and the time hence, there is nothing like it in all of ME. Though it is a reflection, or memory, of an earlier unstained time, it is "something apart" from the rest of ME, and is (for lack of a better word) "removed" from the linear timeframe that those woods are surrounded by.

It is a kind of 'secondary world' but not in the sense of, say, Middle earth (from our perspective),or the Star Wars universe - ie a 'fiction', an invention, a world that never existed which had been made up by an artist. As you say, Lorien was an attempt to recreate rather than sub-create.

Originally Posted by SpM

Although even the High Elves had only indirect knowledge of Eru. They were one step removed, so the requirement for faith on their part was limited to trusting what the Valar told them of him.

Well, I'd say the High Elves had a choice between monotheism (if they believed what the Valar told them about Eru) or polytheism (if they didn't). They wouldn't have had the choice of atheism, as they were aware of the 'fact' of the existence of supernatural beings.

[Maédhros]

You can't - that's the point. If you could know definitely one way or the other it would have a too deterministic effect on your freedom of belief.

But the point is that we cannot say that every action that turned out for the good of ME was a direct intervention of Eru. Gollum fell and that an intervention of Eru. Frodo had pity for Gollum and that was an intervention of Eru.

No, it wasn't his right to act as he saw fit - certainly he had the ability to do as he saw fit, but being able to do something is not the same thing as having the right to do it.

It is interesting but as I see it, the more Melkor acted as he saw fit, the more he wanted to make Arda his (in a way) in the End, he was making a greater Arda for Ilúvatar. So in the moment of his actions were not "good" but in the end, it turned out to be the best.