The Trickster's Consort

[Eruanna]

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

An interesting idea! Perhaps it gives credence to the theory that Tom and Goldberry are, in fact, Maia. Goldberry may have been in the service of Uinen.

I had always discounted this idea before, mainly because the others (ie Gandalf) were clearly affected by the ring, yet Tom wasn't and he could see those that the Ring made invisible.The Ring has no power over him.
Tom and Goldberry seem to belong in their environment, they are very much part of the fabric of the land and the seasons, and yet apart from it.
To paraphrase Goldberry, they are.

Elemental spirits is the closest description that I can come up with, yet that does not solve the enigma. I hope that far more erudite posters that I may come up with something better.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

davem, that is an intriguing description of Guendolena from The Mystic Life of Merlin. I have never been able to find a copy of Geoffry of Monmouth's History of Britian but of course I'm sure Tolkien would have known it.

Geoffrey's History only contains the Prophecies of Merlin (fascinating in themselves - in fact Stewart wrote a book 'The Prophetic Vision of Merlin' on them) not the Vita Merlini. This is available (though difficult to obtain) seperately. It is included in this collection, among many other fascinating works in Myths & Legends of the British Isles:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

The History is available in Penguin Classics.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I wonder: are there any instances in Middle earth of hostile water forces?

There are a few obvious instances of hostile waters, although they do not pose such a threat to those on the side of 'good'. The Ford of Bruinen is one notable example, and also there is the power in the flood which the Ents release upon Isengard (nice mixture of the elements of wood and water there, too). Instances of water being a malevolent force, at least to those we wish to see succeed, seem to arise more from stagnant or standing water, such as the Dead Marshes, or the pool which houses the Watcher in the water outside Moria. Could it be that this water lacks energy, and therefore life, or even Light?

The water used by Galadriel is contained and therefore stil, but it is notably fresh water, from a running supply.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

According to the Oxford English Dictionary , berry is an Old English variant of "barrow", with the meanings "mound, hillock, or barrow", now obsolete except in dialect. There is also a now obsolete Renaissance meaning as "gust or blast of wind" and a Middle English use " to beat or thrash" as in thrashing corn.

Berry/Barrow in Old English is also found as beorg, meaning simply 'hill'. Not every place name with the word 'Barrow' had anything to do with burial mounds, it may simply have originated from the fact that the place was a hill, or was near one! Interestingly, Berry/Bury can often be found in place names denoting hills; the difference no doubt arose from non-standardised spelling or differences in local dialect.

[mark12_30]

Although I know little of the old legends, I am mighty fond of Goldberry. Things that intrigue me about her:

"Let us shut out the night. Fear nothing! For tonight you are in the house of Tom Bombadil."

Who shuts out the night? Tom? Goldberry? The two together? Either way, it's very impressive and very deep.

Tolkien makes a careful point that her dress rustles, I think in a silky sort of way. Leaves rustle, river reeds rustle... The water doesn't rustle, but things around it do. So the river-daughter is appropriately surrounded by rustling; but she herself sings. THere's something deep about that... somewhere.

Surrounded by lilies... Mithadan started a thread linking this to Song of Songs and I think he was right. So-- marital bliss, and fulfillment, and lots of other stuff.

All Tolkien's super-women were light of foot. But that doesn't make it unimportant. Goldberry leaped over the lily-pots and ran to the guests. We don't see elf-ladies running, except for Tinuviel (in song.) But rivers run. And they leap (over rapids and rocks, maybe not over lilies).

Goldberry (and Tom) dance as they clear the table (or were they setting the table?) I've always loved this. In Scotland, they danced in the kitchen because they only had two rooms, kitchen and bedroom. Ceili was held in the kitchen. But Goldberry and Tom aren't having a ceili. Or are they? Their whole ministry to the guests is like a ceili; songs, dances, stories. Perhaps it IS a ceili, arrival to departure.

Rain-- Goldberry makes rain lovely. The idea of a washed forest is just ... well... ...lovely. Lovely.

She sings in greeting and she sings in farewell.

I'm sure there are more but that will do for the moment. Do these qualities have roots in something findable? Is this archetypal stuff? Or what?

I shall ponder possible biblical connections....

[littlemanpoet]

Nilpaurion Felagund:

Because of this, now I think Goldberry has something to do with Uinen, whose hair is spread throughout the waters of Middle-earth.

I have always felt that Goldberry as River-daughter had to do with Uinen; ever since I first read The Silmarillion. Does it make Goldberry a Maia? Maybe. If she's a daughter of the river, which is feminine, does she have a father? Does she need one? Who can say? One of those mysteries. Is she perhaps a lock of Uinen's hair, come to life?

Lalwendé:

But is Goldberry treacherous in any way? Does she 'lure' Tom? And does she lure him into a negative situation?

Have you read the two Adventures of Tom Bombadil poems? In the first one, Goldberry trickes him, pulling on his beard that dangles over the Withywindle (that she is apparently swimming or living in, and steals his hat. Is she flirting?

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;

This suggests that Goldberry is trying to lure Tom to her mother's house, whatever that might mean.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I wonder: are there any instances in Middle earth of hostile water forces? (Bb)

Could the Withywindle be considered a hostile water force?

[davem]

Of course, there was speculation that Gollum was a tricster figure. I suppose we have two possibilities for his 'consort' - Shelob & his Grandmother. What interests me is that just as Tom manifests some of the positive aspects of the Trickster, his consort is a positive figure, while Gollum & Shelob seem to represent the negative aspects.

I wonder if we're dealing with 'Pagan' ideas/symbols as seen from a 'Christian' perspective. The old archetypes don't appear in their pure form but as split into their positive & negetive aspects - as we have the splitting of Odin into positive - Gandalf/Manwe - & negative - Sauron/Saruman. Or the 'good' king/bad king split in Theoden/Denethor.

The four-way 'split' of the trickster-consort pair into positive male-female & negative is interesting. Another thing that occurs is that Tom/Goldberry are childless while Shelob seems incredibly fecund - though she does tend to eat her brood. Gollum also is stated to have taken babies from their cradles to eat. So, the positive dyad seems not to reproduce, & children are absent from their world, while the negative dyad (the female aspect of it at least) reproduces almost uncontrollably but consumes its young....

& I have no idea where I'm going with this, so I'll stop now.