Aragorn's political skills.

[Boromir88]

Going back to an earlier post by SpM, with the quote from the letters about "politics." Perhaps the difference between Aragorn and Denethor is Aragorn isn't corrupted by the politics.

We saw him in Rohan try to disobey Theoden's orders. He had full right to claim Rohan when he claimed Kingship, but he didn't. Which differs from Denethor. Denethor despises anyone who doesn't fight under him. He has become corrupted and obsessed with ruling people, being in charge (similar to Sauron and Saruman allthough not to their extent). He can't see that Gandalf is there to help him. He only thinks Gandalf wants to overthrow him and place Aragorn in his stead. He can't see the fact that he's not a king, he's a steward, he takes care of the throne until the king returns. Aragorn is not corrupted by the power he possesses, and Denethor you might say tries to use power he doesn't have. I wouldn't say "politician" is a bad word to describe Aragorn, he just hasn't become corrupted with the power that most politicians hold.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

He had full right to claim Rohan when he claimed Kingship, but he didn't.

Boromir, I disagree. In the Chapter-by-Chapter discussion of The King of the Golden Hall, we discussed the fact that Rohan was an independent kingdom, allied with Gondor but not subserviant to the Gondorian king. Aragorn made a mistake there, from which he learned a lesson. He had absolutely no claim to any kind of rulership in Rohan. At the end of LotR, both Éomer and Aragorn are kings, renewing their friendship. Though one kingdom is greater and more influential than the other, neither falls under the jurisdiction of the other.

[dwarfguard]

Estelyn is right , to the point: I believe the people were ready for a king and not just stewards.When they learned he was an heir of isildur it just convinced them further.Oh yeah, and saving Minas Tirith didnt hurt either.

[Lalwendë]

When we use the word 'politician' it can unfortunately these days conjour up negative images, but we must remember that not all politicians are bad or unsatisfactory. And in Aragorn I do think we have Tolkien painting a picture of what it takes to be a truly effective and popular politician. There is no democracy in Middle Earth, nation states are ruled by absolute monarchs (even The Shire still nods to an absent king), and as Tolkien stated in his letters, he seemed to prefer this system. But this is a system open to abuse, as I'm sure Tolkien himself would have appreciated, and in Aragorn he showed us a monarch who was also a skilled politician and who had overwhelming popular support. it is an ideal.

Originally Posted by SpM

Rather than being calculated to aid his cause, which would imply an element of political manipulation, he is simply displaying good common sense

Aragorn's actions at not entering Minas Tirith as the all conquering victor are indeed good common sense, but this in itself is at the root of good political sense. He has the bloodline to prove he is the rightful king, and he has just proved himself in battle, but he still needs the popular support if the ideal of an absolute monarch mandated by the people is to happen.

Aragorn's inexperience at the necessary political and diplomatic behaviour was displayed at Edoras, and he rapidly learns, through the tutelage of Gandalf and a quick succession of events, the correct way to approach these matters. I cannot see his actions outside Minas Tirith as anything other than astute political skills of the highest order. Contrasted with his bluster at Meduseld, his behaviour outside his own city is exemplary.

Many factors come together up to the moment of Aragorn's coronation to make him into something of the 'ultimate king'. He has gained the respect and fealty of neighbouring kingdoms, his mythological status is confirmed by Ioreth, and he has the Steward, the former ruler of Gondor, on his side, thus avoiding civil conflict. He has also been lucky that Denethor is not around to stir up trouble, and that he has the best mentor any inexperienced king could wish for.

I do not think Tolkien was against all politicians, only those (and those who seem these days to be prevalent unfortunately) who are in it for the power. Time and again he shows us figures who have been corrupted by the negative side of politics. We have the aggressive rulers in the forms of Sauron and Saruman who seek to empire build. Denethor is the politician who senses his time is up and his desperation causes him to lose the essential power of leadership. There is Grima, the sinister Sir Humphrey figure who craves power and uses the very modern art of manipulation even to the point of his own destruction. And there are even local officials drunk on the power to enforce petty rules as seen in Lotho. All of these come to a sticky end.

So what I see is a message that while politics can easily corrupt leaders, they can also enrich and enable, if the poltical skills being used are for the good of the people, and are coupled with humility and respect. Aragorn is a skilled politician, and he has to be for how else is he to apear such a good king if he does not know how to lead?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Aragorn's inexperience at the necessary political and diplomatic behaviour was displayed at Edoras, and he rapidly learns, through the tutelage of Gandalf and a quick succession of events, the correct way to approach these matters. I cannot see his actions outside Minas Tirith as anything other than astute political skills of the highest order. Contrasted with his bluster at Meduseld, his behaviour outside his own city is exemplary.

Inexperience...

I wonder if this is the right word to use. You are suggesting that Aragorn had no prior political experience, which I would say is a false statement. After all, what do you think "Thorongil" was doing in Gondor? Why was Denethor so jealous? It would seem to me that Aragorn has a pretty strong grasp of politics, or did at one time.

As for Aragorn's behaviour at Meduseld, I would agree that there is an element of inexperience, in that Aragorn is not yet used to dealing with political situation AS ARAGORN. He is not used to being able to state his title and claim his position. Besides which, as we see in Unfinished Tales, Aragorn (as King) later AFFIRMS the decision of Cirion, and grants utterly and completely the land to Rohan. It would have been extremely stupid (considering the entrenchment of the Rohirrim in their land) as well as extremely impolitical (considering that the Rohirrim were Gondor's main allies), not to mention extremely ungrateful (considering the history of the War) to do otherwise, but remember the words of the Steward, on that occasion, and on every occasion they acted in authority...

"Until the King should come again."

However, that is just going off on a tangent, when my point is to suggest that Aragorn was not standing entirely on quicksand, in addition to the fact that he seriously did not want anyone else handling Anduril (for good reason, I imagine), and the fact that he was probably extremely tired, having been riding all over Rohan, and that after walking across in the face of Saruman's magic.

If Aragorn hadn't been so tired, he would have thought through what he was saying a little bit more, and simply put the sword down with a (very!) stern warning not to touch. But he was tired, so he didn't...

That's my take on the situation, anyway. Aragorn wasn't a political newbie. His history clearly shows that he couldn't be.

Actually...

Thinking about Aragorn's history, maybe in the days of Thengel, and earlier in the reign of Theoden, it was customary to wear weapons in the king's presence, and a sign of dishonour to be forcibly disarmed. I have NO info whatsoever to back up that totally random thought, but maybe that could be a part of it. Remember that Gimli only decides he can put down his axe with honour once Aragorn decides its all right.

[Lalwendë]

He did have experience, but not political experience. As Thorongil and as Strider he was a soldier, so his experience was of the military kind. He was undergoing his learning, spending time in his own realm as an ordinary man, and giving service at the same time. He did not need political experience in such situations as his lineage was not made public. Once he started saying who he was, that was the time he would need political skills, as his statements and his status would be called into question. As Strider his actions did all the work for him, once he became Aragorn, his actions would need backing up with careful thought and behaviour.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If Aragorn hadn't been so tired, he would have thought through what he was saying a little bit more, and simply put the sword down with a (very!) stern warning not to touch. But he was tired, so he didn't...

But wasn't he tired after the battle of the Pelennor Fields? Possibly even more tired, but in this situation he instead behaves wisely. This is because he has learned from what he almost did in Rohan. He followed Gandalf's advice and all that followed could only have been to his advantage; he demonstrated his leadership qualities at Helm's Deep and gained the respect of Theoden and his people, and this would have proved to him that he did the right thing in that situation. In between Helm's Deep and Pelennor, it is notable that Aragorn keeps very quiet at isengard, another difficult situation, where he seems simply to observe how Gandalf handles Saruman.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

He did have experience, but not political experience. As Thorongil and as Strider he was a soldier, so his experience was of the military kind. He was undergoing his learning, spending time in his own realm as an ordinary man, and giving service at the same time. He did not need political experience in such situations as his lineage was not made public. Once he started saying who he was, that was the time he would need political skills, as his statements and his status would be called into question. As Strider his actions did all the work for him, once he became Aragorn, his actions would need backing up with careful thought and behaviour.

I am not saying that Thoringil was PRIMARILY a political persona, or even majorly, but I highly doubt that Aragorn had NO political involvement. He was, after all, very close to the centre of Gondorian power: Ecthelion, and even a rival for Denethor. I refuse to believe that Aragorn had NO political involvement, although I would agree that he was a soldier first and foremost. And as I mentioned, there was still a lot be learned when assuming his real identity in public.

But wasn't he tired after the battle of the Pelennor Fields? Possibly even more tired, but in this situation he instead behaves wisely. This is because he has learned from what he almost did in Rohan. He followed Gandalf's advice and all that followed could only have been to his advantage; he demonstrated his leadership qualities at Helm's Deep and gained the respect of Theoden and his people, and this would have proved to him that he did the right thing in that situation. In between Helm's Deep and Pelennor, it is notable that Aragorn keeps very quiet at isengard, another difficult situation, where he seems simply to observe how Gandalf handles Saruman.

Well, I'm not saying that Aragorn DIDN'T learn from Gandalf and his experience at Meduseld. It's quite possible that he learnred a lot, even likely.

What I AM saying is that an 80+ year old Aragorn, with the life experience he possessed, and his natural talent for picking up on things, would have been extremely unlikely to know NOTHING about politics. I'm not saying that it was your intent to portray it as such, but it was looking like you were saying that Aragorn was completely in the dark at Meduseld.

I just wanted to balance the perception a little, by posting in the opposite direction.